Erie Triplex

[KeltikSylk]

I'm opening a can of worms but...
Would anyone be interested in Erie's experimental Triplex? I've been mulling it over in my mind to start one. It's a rather odd engine and seems a bit complex to tackle (not to mention the other four ongoing projects) but I thought I'd make a start.

Judging from the word Triplex, I'm assuming there was no articulation. With a rigid wheelbase of 80 feet or better I can see why it didn't catch on.

Does anyone know where info on this locomotive can be found?

Frank Musick
Lehigh & Atlantic Railway, Canal Navigation Company
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[smyers]

Frank;

I believe the Triplex was articulated, a 2-8-8-0 with a third set
of 8 drivers under the tender. A compound Mallet, all cylinders were of equal size, the middle cyls receiving b.p. steam and exhausting into the front and rear cyls for the x2 compounding.

"Too many legs and not enough steam" was a comment I read about them. Never as successful as hoped.

Virginian had one or two, as well.

Good luck getting that one into the sim!

Steven D. Myers

[cjmaclean]

Frank, I'm interested in ANY kind of big steam :D ! If you ask me, do go ahead!

Cheers,

D.M.

"Homini plurima ex homine sunt mala."

- Plinius Maior, Naturalis Historia 7,1,5

[KeltikSylk]

Thanks for the info...I think all I've ever seen is a photo.

There's a website somewhere, but the bulk of the site said "There was also a Quadraplex proposal, but nobody was interested". I did read it was a Baldwin concept, which goes to show that even the most successful builders miss the mark sometimes.

I had always thought it was articulated, but the Pennsy usage of the word "duplex" on rigid wheelbase steamers like the Q and the T threw me off. If I follow you right only the first two sets of drivers were articulated in the "normal" sense. I'm assuming the third set was "rigid" in the sense that it didn't swing independent of the tender. That being the case..I could short cut things a bit. Take an existing Mallet and create the odd tender for it. By the way...Do you guys pronounce that "MalLIT" or "MalLAY". I think I've heard both (not that i hear a lot of conversations on the subject).

I wish I was interested in 60's and newer diesels...Might be easier from a modeling perspective. But NO, I gotta like the oddballs like Camels and Mother Hubbards and such. Even the diesels I like are critters like Sharks and Centipedes.

I guess somebody has to love the ugly stuff :D

Frank Musick
Lehigh & Atlantic Railway, Canal Navigation Company
http://forums.flightsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3cf3a8001a231e51.jpg

[cjmaclean]

The inventor of the articulated compound locomotive was named Anatole Mallet. He was French (or francophone Swiss?), so I'd say his surname is pronounced "mal'yÉ(t)" (where the bracketed "t" would mean soft intonation).


D.M.

"Homini plurima ex homine sunt mala."

- Plinius Maior, Naturalis Historia 7,1,5

[KeltikSylk]

Malyeet? I'm assuming the soft "t" sounds as in wallet or is more of a silent "t" so you end up with "malyee"...

Or does it sound more like "Malley" as in the Gordon Lightfoot song Canadian Railroad Trilogy...
"We are the malleys who work upon the railroad"

As he dates himself and people shake their heads and wonder who Gordon Rightfoot is)

It's one of those things you have to know...Supposing you're at an NMRA cocktail soiree and you mis-pronounce Mallet in polite conversation...
"Suddenly there was a profound silence...Every guest in the room turned to stare at the uninitiated stranger in their midst. Then was a growing murmur as the stewards moved through the crowd. Taking the man by the arms they drag him towards the exit. "I mean Mallay", he cries. "Mallit"..."Mallyee" His screams recede to a whisper as the great doors close behind him. "Mallet, Indeed!", says the portly woman in the grey gown. There is a low hum of general agreement. The guests, satisfied that the intruder has been dealt with, return to their quiet conversations over cognac and chianti...

Frank Musick
Lehigh & Atlantic Railway, Canal Navigation Company
http://forums.flightsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3cf3a8001a231e51.jpg

[cjmaclean]

Yup, I meant that the "t" should have only a very light intonation...wrote that first post shortly after getting up from bed :-lol .


D.M.

"Homini plurima ex homine sunt mala."

- Plinius Maior, Naturalis Historia 7,1,5

[jfroth1]

Hehe, I'm much more familiar with Gordon Lightfoot (had a few of his records, y'know, those round black vinyl things before CDs to the youngsters) than I am with cognac, chianti, and portly women in gray gowns!

I've heard Anatole's surname pronounced mal-LAY', fwiw. But I'd be thrown out of that cocktail soiree for reasons other than mispronunciation!

Back to the topic, here's a link:

http://www.toytrains1.com/mallet.htm

and:
http://www.steamlocomotive.com/articulated/eriep1.html

and also, the Whyte System:
http://home.att.net/~Berliner-Ultrasonics/whytesys.html

John Roth
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[smyers]

Frank:

That's how I understand it. The rear set was rigidly attached to the tender frame. The "engine" itself was more or less a normal
2-8-8-0. None of the Pennsy duplexii were articulated.

Steven D. Myers

[KeltikSylk]

Thank you for the links!

The only photo I have ever seen is the Matt Shay. Even the ad for a brass loco moons ago in MR used that picture.

I never knew about the rear stack (or the trailing truck). What an odd contraption. Kind of glad Baldwin never built a Quadraplex.

I take it the model shown is O or S scale. Not exactly a "toy".

I like the reference to the LV shops at Sayre...Gives all the Lehigh guys a legitimate excuse to run this Erie beast on their routes, while keeping the rivet counters at bay. I can't help but think how strange it would look as a Camelback if the Lehigh Valley had adopted the idea.

It seems I recall several monstrosities from that period that would also pull the couplers right out of the cars. I've read that the Reading helpers at Gordon were Mallets with similar tractive force. I believe Pennsy had some too. They always appear in photos with those huge carbon-gas headlights. Makes 'em look like Norfolk and Southern Y6a's. They ended up as pushers because of their habit of creating second sections from the trains they pulled.

Now if only I can get GMAX to load, I can test drive the MSTS gamepack making one of these beauties :D

Hmmm...a Camelback Triplex.

Frank Musick
Lehigh & Atlantic Railway, Canal Navigation Company
http://forums.flightsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3cf3a8001a231e51.jpg

[KeltikSylk]

As a follow up to the Erie Triplex...

I found some info on Baldwin selling the Triplex design to Virginian. Although the triple articulated didn't work out, Virginian rebuilt theirs as two seperate loco's, mounting the third set of drivers under it's own boiler. Apparently the remaining front half provided decent service. The entire class ran for another 20 years. They were often assisted over the top by two articulated pushers (I think it was something in the 2-10-10-2 range, believe it or not).

They remained in service until the Virginian electrified the division.

In appearance they seem identical to the Erie beasts. If you'd like more info, I'll try to get it and post it.

Frank Musick
Lehigh & Atlantic Railway, Canal Navigation Company
http://forums.flightsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3cf3a8001a231e51.jpg


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[smyers]

Triplexers:

I found some plans including cross-sections in one of the Newton
Gregg books published in the '70s. Seems like an ambitious project for MSTS. Also plans for the VGN 2-10-10-2. Unlike the
Triplexii, the 2-10-10-2s were apparently successful, some lasting till the end of steam. That might be an interesting
job for someone with lots of time!

Steven D. Myers

[KeltikSylk]

Is there any way you can get scans of the plans, man...

Sorry, it just bubbles out at times.

If not I'll try to find the books

Good plans are the first step to good finish work (something I am learning the hard way)

Frank Musick
Lehigh & Atlantic Railway, Canal Navigation Company
http://forums.flightsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3cf3a8001a231e51.jpg


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[cua193]

I have a 1914 bound volume of 'American Engineer'

In it there's an extremely detailed plan of the triplex.

If you're serious about building it I could try to scan the plans - they're 3 A4 pages wide!

Personally I would leave it in the pipedreams drawer - it's far, far too complicated. 3 sets of Walschaert's gear, an .eng file that would need the resurrection of Einstein.

As for Gmax - forget it. I can't make head or tail of it.

I'll only scan the pages if you're serious - I don't want to risk damaging the book. Don't know whether digital camera images might work.

I could always give the the exact title of the magazine - perhaps a local library could find a copy.

regards
Richard Osborne

[KeltikSylk]

I am serious, but I don't want to wreck a book. I have a similar thing about a copy of a 19th Century Engineering magazine I found at a flea market. It's got these fold out plans for a wood pile driver. They were drawn way back (150 years?)when draftsman was still spelt "draughtsman" and you still drew full wood grain on wooden parts. I keep it in a plastic bag so it won't get wrecked...Which is really saying something if you knew me about such things...

I'm also at the point with 3d modeling where I can barely handle an arch bridge let alone a Triplex, but I am working at it(actually the arch is easy, it's the texture that won't cooperate).

GMAX baffles me too. It's not as intuitive as I would like. I've gotten used to the European projection it uses. That was the easy part. It's the drawing controls I don't like. I guess once you know them they are okay, but learning seems more difficult than it should be. I keep falling back to TSM, but it's still slow going(of course, if I devoted more time to it, things might go faster). As it is, some of the stuff I've got on my list is already out by someone else (like the Pioneer Zephyr from the "Bored" guy)...

Like I said, I am serious about adding the Triplex to my list of projects, but please don't destroy any hundred year old books. Let me look for some archive of American Engineer...

Now where did I put those plans for the Green Diamond? :D
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"My God!, Illinois Central has captured the essence of the Potato Worm"

Frank Musick
Lehigh & Atlantic Railway, Canal Navigation Company
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[smyers]

Frank;
I've scanned all three 81/2x11pages from the Newton Gregg book to *.bmps if you're still interested. The zip is 1.2mb.
I'll e-mail if you give the OK.

Steven D. Myers

[KeltikSylk]

I'd at least like to give it a try. At worst I could get the basic shape created...Give me some place to use all the wheel sets I create (so far wheels are the only finished product I'm satisfied with).
http://forums.flightsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3d0f5d1f37c57196.jpg
Still have to compensate for the smoothing somehow, or not use it at all.
http://forums.flightsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3d0f5d4f38965a7e.jpg

I'll send you my e-mail address.

Frank Musick
Lehigh & Atlantic Railway, Canal Navigation Company
http://forums.flightsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3cf3a8001a231e51.jpg


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[cua193]

Frank,

I've got a couple of those Train Shed Cyclopedias - the plans should be just the ticket!

The only problem might be reading any dimensions - if you need anything give me a yell.

One thought about your wheel set - it looks great but if you build even a freight car to this standard your poly count will be huge. The Triplex would have a poly count in the millions!

Most people would make a wheel with 12 or 16 segments. A wheel set with 16 segments will have 192 polys - without axles, flanges or knobbly bits.

The problem is the trade-off between detail & frame rate. I'd be willing to bet that the TA Big Boy won't even work on some computers.

regards
Richard Osborne

[KeltikSylk]

Thanks for the warning!...Back to the drawing board. Hadn't thought about that a whole lot.

One tough thing to get used in 3D modeling is the difficulty of editing existing parts. Think of having to remake wheel sets after the job is done.

I "threw" this together last night, it's sort of a proof of concept. The drivers are rescaled versions of the leading and trailing wheels. Not very realistic, but it was quick and dirty...

http://forums.flightsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3d1077f51fe55e4e.jpg
Dem's a lot of drivers, no?
http://forums.flightsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3d107817203b0802.jpg
I tried to create the tender with a box, but TSM won't let me use the cross section tool on boxes. I had to make a temptate of a square and then extrude...Cylinders work fine, the boiler is a tube with certain cross sections scaled out for the bulge. That's also how the wheel sets were made. The "ridge" in the coal bunker is a mistake.
http://forums.flightsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3d10783620a3a392.jpg
I had to zoom way out to get the entire length in. With all those drivers, and the rear stack (not shown) these engines look like Rube Goldberg designs.

There is beacoup work to be done yet, and a whole bunch of techniques to be developed and learned. I have to check the width, cause I don't front, section, or back views yet.

I should have started with these "simpler" locos first. Not articulateds, but the standard steamers. Instead I went for streamliners. I could have learned faster with the simpler shapes. My Hiawatha and Pennsy T1 are still in the boiler shop...

Why isn't this simple to make on stupid arch for a bridge?

If we learn by our mistakes, I should be a genius by now!

Frank Musick
Lehigh & Atlantic Railway, Canal Navigation Company
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[TVRRMAN]

I recently read about the subject. To answer your question about Pennsy having several Norfolk and Western Y6a Mallets, they weren't Y6a's, but they were Norfolk and Western Y3 Class 2-8-8-2 Mallets. Six surplus Y3s were sold to the Pennsy in during WWII to relieve a motive power shortage. Their numbers were 373-378. If you are interested in more info, please drop a note in my inbox. Glad to be of some help.

TVRRMAN

18 Year old Avid Pennsy Fan
Now officially Graduated from High School

[BaltoOhioRRFan]

here's a pic of the Triplex is under my Sig Pic

[KeltikSylk]

Thanks

Frank Musick
Lehigh & Atlantic Railway, Canal Navigation Company
http://forums.flightsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3d1f3126160f466a.jpg

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http://forums.flightsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3cff90bc578f8663.gif <www.KelticSylk.com>

[mikkox]

That's the Virginian Triplex. The Erie Triplex is a completely different locomotive, although they share the same design principle, adding a set of drivers under the tender.