3DS Max vs. 3DC vs. TSM vs. GMAX - ????

[v1perfan]

So now that GMAX has been released and recognized by the TSM community, does someone care to give any comments on which software is still the best?

It would be really cool if someone did a matrix of the four software bundles with their pros and cons! :)

BTW: Has anyone actually done an MSTS project with GMAX yet?

Brian.

[FozzyBear]

>So now that GMAX has been
>released and recognized by the
>TSM community, does someone care
>to give any comments on
>which software is still the
>best?

depends a lot on personal opinion...... BUT There are still significant advntages that 3DCanvas has over anything else... including, per object smoothing, good boolean operations and a far far better exporter than the G-Max or TSM ones. As for TSM at least now G-Max has an exporter TSM is no longer the bottom of the pile as far as output quality is concerned.

But then again G-Max costs nothing to use so if someone is on a tight budget or no budget at all, they still have the option to build something with it, even if the output from it isn't great and even if it is as unstable as a ping pong ball balanced on top of a broomstick in a draft. Horses for courses I suppose.....

3DCanvas still has my vote... and before anybody says it, YES I've used all of them.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[pwillard]

I concur.

Yes, I have used all 3 as well. GMAX has them all beat on pretty looks however. She is perdy, aint she?

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Pete Willard

[dyvach]

So now that GMAX has been released and recognized by the TSM community, does someone care to give any comments on which software is still the best?

It strongly depends on which of them is most comfortable for you to work with. Since gMax is free and 3DC has free basic version, it might be reasonable to download them both and try which suits you better. :) (3ds Max has workflow very similar to gMax, and TSM...well it's up to the software authors to try and get more customers.. if they think it's not worth the trouble to release a demo... it's their problem, i guess...)

[chrisell]

I've used the gmax stuff quite extensively over the last couple of days and it's growing on me. My next project - the Mat'54 (about 75% done now) will be post-processed in Gmax to add some neat functionality to it. But then I'm a 3DSMax bigot, so I kinda like the babyMax - it's somehow strangely familiar.... :-)


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Chris Longhurst.
Euro Loco Pack now on sale : www.christrains.com/eurolocopack.html

[jeffmorris]

I tried 3D Canvas, Train Sim Modeler, and GMAX. TSM is basic 3D modeler. 3DC is better 3D modeler than TSM. GMAX is better 3D modeler than 3DC and TSM. Jeffrey.

[FozzyBear]

LAST EDITED ON May-31-02 AT 08:35PM (EDT)[p]>I tried 3D Canvas, Train Sim
>Modeler, and GMAX. TSM is
>basic 3D modeler. 3DC is
>better 3D modeler than TSM.
>GMAX is better 3D modeler
>than 3DC and TSM.

G-Max forces you to use smoothing groups and has dreadful texture mapping options... Try doing per object smoothing in it or per vertex smoothing.... it can't do it!

Ok now we got that one out the way, lets try doing an operation adjust to move and size and rotate a texture in real time on the model??? No Ooops! Can't do that either!

OK lets try a UV Remap so that you can have a totally smoothed smokebox and yet not have your texture distorted and rivits stretched at the top.... Ooops! can't do that properly either.

Also try complex boolean operations in it. Again it can't do them properly! ROFL.... Plus the exporter stinks! it only writes .s files. Canvas can output an entirely working model. Oh yes! lets not forget that it ONLY produces .s files no other output, no 3ds no max no raytrace mmmmmmmm looking to be the bottom of the pile here!

Lets not forget that you only get one working view and it has grief when it comes to background working drawings too.

Stability! who needs stability when you can use G-Max that falls over at the drop of a hat.

Basically G-Max is a big pile of doggy doo!! The only advantage G-Max has is that it's free. So I suppose if somebody really needs their 3D software to cost nothing then G-Max has it all. It's great for making figures to run round in Quake... But it aint what's needed for building trains.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[chrisell]

Okay - so we now know that Fozzybear isn't a huge fan of 3DStudio :-)

(that's all g-max is - a cut-down version of Max).

The reason it doesn't do a lot of the stuff Fozzybear is talking about is because it's a multipurpose modeller designed for all comers. TSM is designed specifically for TrainSim modelling. Try to get TSM to pull off some of the tricks 3DS has up its sleeve and you have the same arguments but the other way around :-)



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Chris Longhurst.
Euro Loco Pack now on sale : www.christrains.com/eurolocopack.html

[MikeBrobst]

Don't forget also, who is more open to it's users suggestions of what they want in an update....Abacus (TSM) or Discreet (GMAX) ?
---Mike Brobst---

http://forums.flightsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3cefe74131e1bfc0.gif

---Toledo, OH---

[troub]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-03-02 AT 12:15PM (EDT)[p]Chris, you miss Fozzy's point: he's not advocating TSM either. . .it doesn't do those things. 3DCanvas does, and does it wonderfully. 3DCanvas is a general purpose 3D modeller! You can export your models to .3ds, directX, lightwave, autocad, popular raytracing programs, etc., and you can import from these formats (and more!) as well.

troub
[link:pages.sbcglobal.net/msts-ic|MSTS: Illinois Central]

[pwillard]

I don't believe that either TSM or GMAX can create all the files required for the trainsim within a single export process that compares in any way to the superiority of the 3D Canvas Train-Sim Export wizard. The ease with which I can go from a model on the screen to seeing it in trainsim is pure joy.


Even with GMAX, you are still required to edit text files in accordance with the Tech docs. To some people it has become second nature to hand edit these files, but there are many potential modelers that would be very put-off by this.

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Pete Willard

[chrisell]

The only text file you need to edit is the .sd shape-descriptor file, and you only need to do that once. After its in place, you can go straight from gmax to Trainsim. Don't get me wrong - I'm a huge fan of 3DCanvas too. For such a cheap piece of software, its functionality is amazing. Plus, its been designed from a users point of view rather than an engineers point of view.


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Chris Longhurst.
Euro Loco Pack now on sale : www.christrains.com/eurolocopack.html

[goldenpig]

Well I just got GMAX and it's exporter and it looks like I'll just keep building in 3DSMax and importing to GMAX and resaving.. as a gmax file and then exporting for TrainSim... I'll let you guys know how it goes... :-)

I like the gmax UI because I am so used to 3DStudioMax. It's familiar and I like that. The idea of getting to know a new UI and program doesn't thrill me. Fozzy, one day soon I will get 3DCanvas, especially if it is as easy as you say. But since I have like 3 locos waiting in Max formats I won't start any more with Max but I'll finish the ones started. If this gmax thing doesn't work as planned then I'll be investing in Canvas for sure.

But Chrisell just finished a loco using Gmax and said it went well... I'll give it a try.

Wish me luck and soon everyone will have an SF GP60M, SP GP40X, and more...

=|Goldenpig

[Groquik]

Hi

I'm also used with 3DS Max so discovering gMax functions was fast

I've tested especially LOD manager and new options with material shading.

That's great and this will simplify the exportation compared to Conv3ds. Nevertheless, I have some questions without response:

The generated *.s file is binary but not zipped. Is there a option to check instead of using ffedit?

Material editor proposes "Diffuse" shader, and LOD manager doesn't refuse such a material. But whatever the chosen colour, the mesh appears always white under Trainsim.

What is the Additive alpha shader? and does Trainsim support it?

Chris said only the *.sd file needs to be written. What about the *.eng, *.wag? Does Canvas help to write them?

[chrisell]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-03-02 AT 07:11PM (EDT)[p]>The generated *.s file is binary
>but not zipped. Is there
>a option to check instead
>of using ffedit?

Yes. I've since noticed the same thing. Quite how they've managed to generate a binary file that huge is beyond me :-)
At the moment, the only way around it is to ffedit the file twice:

ffeditc myfile.s /o:myfile.s
ffeditc myfile.s /o:myfile.s

The first time turns it back into text, the second time re-binary-ises it (like that? :-)) but in a compressed form.....


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Chris Longhurst.
Euro Loco Pack now on sale : www.christrains.com/eurolocopack.html

[goldenpig]

Ok... so, I have my lil' gp60M that I did in MAX imported into Gmax, saved as gmax file opened into gamepack. I made sure all the heirarchy was ok and all the linking was done, and of coarse the pivot points adjusted. I started the converter and it seemed to work fine, only thing is that the .S file is only 1KB.. x(

What's that all about!? What went wrong, or is that normal? Am I missing something? Any input would be greatly appreciated...

thanks guys.

=|Goldenpig

[patm41]

I myself have TSM commercial ,, 3DCanvas,, And GMax... For ease of use for someone who does not have alot of modeling experiance
TSM wins hands down ,, For someone with some more experiance and wants to create a more complex model, well 3DCanvas would be a better choice,, and for you guys that are hardcore designers then
the Max programs make the best choice...

just my views :)

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patm41

[dyvach]

In the .s exporter window, you need to create at least one LOD structure. Select the root of your hierarchy, open the .s exporter and click the "+" button. After the exporter is done with creating the LOD level, you might want to check the results, in case there's need to re-link and add sub-parts it skipped...

[goldenpig]

Thanks! Just one more question about modeling in general in Max... When the loco is all modeled and you have numerous objects aside from the bogies, how do you figure what is to be the MAIN object? Do you group everything but the BOGIES into one object or do you attach them all? OR does it need to be one single mesh???? This is making me nuts! Until now I just did the modeling and texturing, Julian helped get them going. But I need to learn for myself so if anyone can offer some words of advice I'd leave you my millions...

=|Goldenpig

[dyvach]

Well, i had the whole loco set up as single object in 3ds Max, then imported pantograph along with its animation in the scene, and then did the same for bogies. Finally exported the whole thing to single .3ds file and brought it like that into gMax.

I think it's at least implied in the .s exporter docs that it's best to have all things merged into one object (other than bogies, wipers etc) but i haven't tried building it the other way, so can't tell which way is really better.

[goldenpig]

Thanks kind sir! I shall give it a go!

=|Golgenpig

[jspittler]

I would like to throw a thought out into the discussion:

It seems to me the fact that 3D Canvas is a general purpose application, rather than just for MSTS or specific games, may actaully have a significant benefit for creating cab views in Train Sim.

It seems that what one could do would be to make a 3D cab model, render it with the advanced capabilities of 3DC, and then take "screenshots" which could then be used as the cab views in Train-Sim. Has anybody tried this yet?

Judd Spittler
[td]http://forums.flightsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3beca5905418795f.jpg
[td]..[td]Spittler Engineering
High Quality Freeware
for Microsoft Train Simulator

www.juddspittler.com/spittler_engineering/

[FozzyBear]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-04-02 AT 05:15AM (EDT)[p]>Try to get TSM to
>pull off some of the
>tricks 3DS has up its
>sleeve and you have the
>same arguments but the other
>way around :-)

Sorry Chris, I think you misunderstand me...

I wouldn't suggest anybody use TSM unless they really just need to knock something out very quickly for their first try at modeling. I'm certainly not a big fan of it and many people who use it migrate to something else as they outgrow it, the support from Ababcus also isn't too hot.

I Do however think that for Trainsim the only modeller that does everything that's needed right now is 3DCanvas. While it may well be a general purpose modeler as you say, it does have access to every feature you could actually need to produce an MSTS model. Without beiing either overloaded or underpowered. That's something that neither G-Max (Max) nor TSM manages to achieve.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[pwillard]

Judd,

Commendable idea. It should be attempted, although I'm not sure my skills are good enough yet.

Again, I will state that 3D Canvas has the only export wizard of the three tools that allows you to avoid having to mess with command line conversion tools and funky text file editing.

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Pete Willard

[chrisell]

I thought I ought to post again as I caused a little confusion. I was talking about the TrainSimWizard in 3DCanvas. Not TrainSim modeller. I know, I know - but it was late in the day when I made that post, so forgive me.
Anyhoo - my point still stands. Sort of. Although 3DCanvas is a general-purpose modeller, the TSWizard in it is custom-designed for exporting to the .s shape format. It seems that Richard did a better job of his exporter than MS did with their own gmax gamepack :)

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Chris Longhurst.
Euro Loco Pack now on sale : www.christrains.com/eurolocopack.html

[troub]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-04-02 AT 11:27AM (EDT)[p]>It seems that what one could
>do would be to make
>a 3D cab model, render
>it with the advanced capabilities
>of 3DC, and then take
>"screenshots" which could then be
>used as the cab views
>in Train-Sim. Has anybody
>tried this yet?

Exactly. This is what I am doing with the cab for my SD70. If you download POV-Ray (free), 3DCanvas will render your model using the POV-Ray raytracing engine. If your models and textures are good, this can provide damn near photo-quality rendering, perfect for creating the cab views.

Not to mention that learning a more general product is a plus because you can use the same program to model for MSTS, MSTS2, Trainz, Quake, your own pictures or movies, flight simulator. . .whatever you want.

troub
[link:pages.sbcglobal.net/msts-ic|MSTS: Illinois Central]

[troub]

For example, here is a screenshot from the Amabilis (http://www.amabilis.com) message board on using 3DCanvas with POV-Ray. It's by "Patrick_M":

http://forums.flightsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3cd1e96a52ff0bbe.gif

troub
[link:pages.sbcglobal.net/msts-ic|MSTS: Illinois Central]