Sound pitch change on secondary units....Fixed!

[Crash]

I have noticed that the "non-drivable" AI engines (SD-40)that came with the game that their engine pitch changes depending on their speed. I hooked one up behind a drivable engine and took it for a spin. Well, it sounded pretty good. It's pitch change was not the same as the drivable engine, but much more realistic than listening to an idling engine go by. So, I made new .eng files for all of my engines based on the AI .eng file so for every drivable engine, I now have a non-drivable engine that can be used as a secondary engine and be more realistic when veiwed from the outside. It's a start at least for that problem. Has anyone else experimented along these lines?

BNSF Western Washington

[TrirailF40PHL]

That sounds like the solution for Jens-Chris' Big Blow turbine!!!!!!! You ougta email him!

Kurt

[scefhwil]

By default the sim is configured to play generic deisel/steam/electric sounds for AI/helper locos.

You don't need to create a new .eng file to get different sounds from a 'non-drivable' engine. Use the same 'drivable' engines for your helpers or AI locos, but revise the setup under Scalibility_Level 0 in the approriate xxxxxeng.sms file. ie whatever you have put in your AI .sms, include it under SL0 of the main loco's .sms.

Look at some of the other threads in this forum for more details about the limitations in AI sounds.

[scefhwil]

Apologies crash,

Ignore my last posting, I mis-understood your expanation.

You are quite right in your conclusion. Driveable and non-drivable helper engines do respond differently, in sound terms at least. I have for many months now done just what you have done, that is create a non-drivable version of each new engine for use as AI. I did it originally because, on my system at least, there is less of a performance loss with non-drivable AI engines than with drivable AI engines. I hadn't noticed therefore that sounds didn't operate properly with driveable helper engines. I have just checked it out and found it so too.

It would seem therefore that Kuju had it right when they used non-drivables for AI/helper. I wonder how many more querks have arisen from the now normal practice of using driveable engines for helpers and AI's?

Stuart

[Crash]

Good point!

BNSF Western Washington

[Crash]

I got to testing AI engines as helpers and AI traffic in activities and discovered that the use of AI engines improves frame rates! I got on average 3-4fps more using only AI engines as helpers and on AI consists. Just a litle something more for the quest of better frame rates!

BNSF Western Washington

[johdu]

I am very interested in using this technique for "parked consists" in activities. I have a few questions.

How to you make an engine AI?

How do you differentiate it in the trainset folder from it's
active counterpart?

Do the AI "only" engines and consists show up in the selection screen for "drive a train"

I am a bit concerned about the "volumn" I have too many loco's now and I could easly double the number. So I am interested in how trainsim (and you) manage the additional units.

thanks for your assistance
JD

jyduchene@yahoo.com

[scefhwil]

JD,

Making an engine non-driveable at it's simplist is just a case of removing the CabView () statement out of the Engine () section of a .eng file. The other driving related statements can remain without causing any problems. Here's some text from another posting I recently made on another forum.

".....using non-drivable loco's for AI and helper engines has some advantages.

1. You get better fps watching non-drivable AI's/helpers.

2. Non-drivable helper engines (that is helper engines not AI's) can be made to have Speed related engine sounds whilst driveable helpers can't.

It takes little to produce a non-drivable version of a loco. Simply a case of copying the .eng file, renaming it, deleting the Cabview & Headout statements, altering the Engine and Wagon names, and changing the Description. For the first reason above I have been doing this for many months, but have only this week become aware of the second advantage. My method is to simply insert a # infront of the filename, Engine name, Wagon name and Description. Non-drivables then appear batched together in the consist editor and are generally easily identified."

When you create a consist with a non-driveable engine the consist editor in the AE gives you a warning message that you are saving a consist with no drivable unit. These consists then do not show up in the selection screen for "drive a train".

I find that using my # method takes less than a minute to create a new .eng file. This file is the only extra disc-space taken up in the Trainsets folders. The ideal would be for all new engines to come complete with both driveable and non-driveable, but I think that would take too much of a culture change.

Stuart

[yellowdog]

I'm one of those people who has to do things to figure them out, so reading your message confused me a little. When you make a copy of the *.eng file, removing the cabview and headout statements, where do you keep the new *.eng file? Does it go back in the original folder, or do you have to make a new folder for it (and the other files that go with the loco)? Also, do you literally use the "#" symbol (without the quotes) in front of the new files, or were you saying that you put a number in front of the new files? Thanks.

BTW, I didn't take the time to look, but have you posted this (or linked to it) on the Loco design forum?

Clayton

[scefhwil]

Clayton,

I do literally mean the hash symbol #. I use this as it's very obvious and easy to type (no shift key needed, at least on a British layout keyboard!). By all means use some other if you prefer, but it might be useful to keep this as a 'standard'.

Save the new .eng file in the same folder as the original. It uses the same .s and .ace files but because you declare different Engine and Wagon names in each .eng the sim is happy.

I haven't posted a link. Will probably wait until this thread 'dies'.

Stuart

[Crash]

What I did was to just copy the eng file a renamed it in the same directory. Then using the information from an AI eng file as a guide, I change the required info to fit the new AI engine shape and sound files. I guess there is a little work doing it and will post more specifics later.

BNSF Western Washington

[johdu]

Crash, tried to follow your directions. went to the .eng file
removed the cabview info to (). changed the name to #F7yadeeda.
and was able to find it lisited in conbuilder but could not
"use it" would not load. When I ran Trainsim.. I got an unhappy message about error in .eng file.

Clearly, you are getting it to work and not get error messages.

I have to think since I only renamed and removed the cabview data that you are doing something slightly different then I am.

are you preserving the quotes ie. ("")?

Please provide just a little more tech. assistance.

Thanks much, JD

just for your interest, what I have in mind is the very dirty F7ABBA units of the SP by Ken Boudreaux with the BeatUp Box cars as an AI siding consist. should look very "earthy" if I can accomplish it. thanks again

[SP9800]

You have to remove the whole CabView line, not just the value inside the parentheses. Don't leave it as CabView (), just delete everything on that line.

[yellowdog]

OK, I tried this last night. I took John Peterson's C30-7 model 7000, copied the *.eng file (keeping the default name, "Copy of *.eng") in that loco folder and removed the Cabview and Headout lines completely. Then I renamed the copied *.eng file, adding the "#" sign, and also adding the "#" sign in the *.eng file where indicated. I made up a consist of a driveable 7000, and two #7000s in Con Builder (the non-driveable did show up "as advertised") and plugged the consist into MSTS. I ran it for a while, then quit and ran the default C30-7 consist with the 3 default 7000s. After running them several times, from different perspectives, I noticed no perceptible differences between the two consists in sound or frame rates. Did I miss something? I didn't have an opportunity to experiment with another loco to see if it was just something about the 7000.

Clayton

[scefhwil]

Clayton,

I'm completely unfamiliar with the loco you have used so bare with me. You appear to have edited the .eng file correctly as it has appeared as required without any error messages. What .sms file does the #7000 point to in the Wagon () section? You need to check in this .sms (should be a ?????eng.sms) to see that under ScalibilityGroup 0 only Speed triggers are being used.

As for fps gain, it may be a system related issue. I get at least 10% more fps where I pass my loco depot with half a dozen stationary engines on it. May not be much, but better than nout, and on my system is worth it.

Stuart

[yellowdog]

As you can see, it doesn't appear to point to any *.sms in the wagon section:

Wagon ( #csx7000
Type ( Engine )
WagonShape ( c30-7.s )
Size ( 2.84m 4.6m 20.25m )
comment( 390000lbs US )
Mass ( 176.9t )
WheelRadius ( 20in )
InertiaTensor ( Box ( 2.84m 4.098m 22.3m ) )
Coupling (
Type ( Automatic )
Spring (
Stiffness ( 1e6N/m 5e6N/m )
Damping ( 1.2e6N/m 1.2e6N/m )
Break ( 1.7e7N 1.7e7N )
r0 ( 20cm 30cm )
)

However, under "Sound", it points to the d9eng.sms. Is this what you're talking about?

Clayton

[scefhwil]

Yup thats the one.

Hmmmm, my default d9eng.sms uses Speed under ScalibilityGroup 0, so expect yours does.

Only other thing to try is to create a stand-alone .sms for the AI. Make a copy of d9eng.sms and call it #d9eng.sms. Delete out of it ScalibilityGroups 5, 3 and 1, leaving only SG 0. Finally add a # to the file name in the .eng file so it correctly references it.

I'll wait to hear from you (only 2330hrs here in Bristol, England)

Stuart

[yellowdog]

OK, that's done. I'll try it out soon after I finish downloading the Sky Conductor 2- -just now getting around to that. Oh, BTW, I live near Bristol! Bristol, Tennessee/Virginia (the city actually exists in both states) in the U.S., that is! Probably named after where you live. Again, thanks for the help. I'll let you know if it's successful.

Clayton

[yellowdog]

OK, I believe that did work! I still can't tell about the frame rate, but I can definitely HEAR something different! Now on to other locos. . .

Clayton

[yellowdog]

I downloaded the newest version of ConBuilder (v1.4?) and installed it. To my "horror" I found that I had multiple copies of many of the locos. The reason? I had created many "AI" locos using the process described in this post. In the old ConBuilder, the locos were aliased by file names, so #CRR3019 would show up as a separate engine from CRR3019 and I would know which was the driveable and which wasn't. The new ConBuilder has locos listed by their description in the eng file (i.e. "Clinchfield SD40 3019"). So if you're going to get the new ConBuilder, make sure you modify the description to identify the AIs (i.e. "Helper CRR 3019"). Probably folks smarter than me had already been through the readme file and made necessary changes, but I figure maybe this post will save someone a near heart-attack! :)

Clayton

[Tep70]

I got confused.. Getting an Error message when loading eng.sms (from FOLDER : Train Simulator\Trains\Trainset\ChS2(newly downloaded loco)



Can some one Please show IN "which" folders IN exactly "which" files do I have to add\delete "which" lines???????



EXPLAIN HOW TO EDIT DASH9 INTO FULLY WORKING (fps-saving, and sound-fixed) NONDRIVABLE AI AS AN EXAMPLE, PLEASE!




Example:

Go to Folder: Trainset\Dash9 , in file "dash9.eng" change line "W a g o n ( D a s h 9" to "#W a g o n ( D a s h 9"

Then go to Folder : Trainset\Dash9\Sound\, in file d9eng.sms change line "........." to "bla bla bla, etc" ... ETC


In that style it would be VERY very helpful. thank you!

[yellowdog]

Copy/paste dash9.eng into it's default folder="Copy of dash9.eng" or similar.
Open "Copy of dash9.eng"
Change "Wagon ( Dash9" to "Wagon ( #Dash9" or whatever works for you, maybe "Wagon ( AIDash9"- -something to let you know it's a non-driveable loco, BUT USE THE SAME SYMBOL FOR EACH CHANGE! I'll use the # in the rest of this post.
Change "Engine ( Dash9" to "Engine ( #Dash9"
Change "Wagon ( Dash9" to "Wagon ( #Dash9" again
Delete "CabView ( dash9.cvf )"
Change "Name ( "Dash 9" )" to "Name ("#Dash 9")"
Save changes and close file
Change the name of the file from "Copy of dash9" to "#dash9"

I think that's right. Doing it from memory! :) I'll play with it a little myself and check the post tomorrow to see if it worked for you. Good luck.

Clayton

[Tep70]

Damn, I tried those directions you gave me, yellowdog.... but still get an error! I can't figure out since there are a lot of blank spaces in between words and letters (variables, whichever)... Maybe I need to know exactly where to put/add these new characters to that and that particular line( like " # D a s h 9 " or " #D a s h 9 " or....?????? or exactly how many blank spaces I need to delete from that line... For example if deleting the C a b v i e w ( there's a lot of blank space around it, I dont know if I need to delete everything including these blanks and those weird black sqares along with blanks.....I've tried about 6 times and nothing satisfies MSTS, always gives me an "dash9.eng error" sign. Why I'm interested in making non drivable AI is because I have a low end computer (rather old) and I still have time till sumer before getting a newer 2.5 gHz(at least)512DDRRAM... And up until now I've been annoyed by low fps. That's how ended up here in this forum thread :-)

If you could check if those directions are alright.... Would be superb.!

[yellowdog]

"For example if deleting the C a b v i e w ( there's a lot of blank space around it, I dont know if I need to delete everything including these blanks and those weird black sqares along with blanks....."

I'm at work, away from eng files, but I have some comments about this line that you wrote. First, JUST DELETE THE CABVIEW LINE. Highlight that whole line and hit "delete" on your keyboard. This should leave two blank lines. I don't know what black squares you're talking about. The only thing I can think of here is that you're not viewing it correctly, i.e. in Wordpad as a Unicode Text file. If that's the case, no wonder it's not working.

You don't have to put spaces between characters. "#Dash9" has no spaces in it at all, no matter where you put it.

Clayton

[scefhwil]

If your seeing black squares then you aren't using a unicode editor. Open the file up from inside Wordpad and you'll soon realise why what you've been trying to do is so unsucessful!

[Tep70]

>Open the file up
>from inside Wordpad and you'll
>soon realise ....


That one keyword "wordpad"... It solved it all and in a little less than one minute (as scefhwil said) was the AI ready to save some of that annoying fps!

Many thanks Yellowdog (clayton) and scefhwil (big thanks for the keyword "wordpad"). :-) :-)

[Fastruck]

You think it could be triggered buy the exaust figure instead of speed.
just thinking here for a more realistic way.

think about it.

Fastruck

[chucksc]

You are right that would produce a much more realistic sound....
unfortunately that is not the trigger Kuju chose to hard code in....
Welcome to my world! LOL!
I have been trying to get GE Hood Unit Sounds to "load up" like the prototype and you are talking about one of my frustrations here....


------Chuck Schneider---------
http://forums.flightsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3be393470fae6ec7.jpg
-----"Power for You"-------

[Fastruck]

well it was worth a shot.

Shoot:(, too bad it dosen't work like you say but I will find some other way. maybe some day something will work for us here going to hack this one out.


Thanks for the info Chuck.

BTW, "Good Luck:D" with your projects at NALW:D.

[chucksc]

And an excellent Idea! Too bad Kuju didn't use it!

------Chuck Schneider---------
http://forums.flightsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3be393470fae6ec7.jpg
-----"Power for You"-------

[yardlimit]

I can't describe how helpful this thread has been for me. It was like the dam broke for several issues. One comment I'd like to make as an observer of all this is with regard to the sound issue in "helper" engnes. Creating non-drivable helpers worked fine, but understanding the sound issue took longer. And perhaps I just misread. In any event, using the #XXX.eng file philosophy, I created an additional #xxxeng.sms in the sound folder, with SG 5, 3, and 1 removed. I pointed the eng sound ref in #xxx.eng at this file and low and behold -- what a difference in sound. I admit being a little slow on the uptake. (chuckle) One casual observation I made was that the engine revs on the "helpers" seem to lag the lead engine on throttle notch down. Its a small thing, and not really that noticeable unless one brings the lead engine to a halt quite quickly and listens. I am in the process of creating my first, and what I hope is, a unique period (1957) activity for Marias3. I have been sweating blood over this thing for a month, and was having one "hellavatime" getting AI trains to move. Now I'm not sure if this was the cure, but I'll tell you that as soon as I introduced a non drivable engine on the AI train like the ones mentioned in this thread the whole #@&$ thing came alive like "Frankenstein's monster." Maybe I just used the editor wrong initially, but who knows? In addition, the frame rate, appearance, and total performance of the whole package has improved noticeably. This site is one fine collection of knowledge. This sure bailed me out.