Ideas....

[alex_farlie]

(The Forums don't have a light bulb icon yet so this goes in General)


Some ideas for conventional an unconventional routes..

You might want to use them as the basis for trying to get an
entry in respect of the 2 Mile Challange (the details of which
are on Wulf site.)

OK here goes with some suggestions...

- Ye Olde Stream Contrivance.
- It is convetionaly thought that the steam engine is a modern
(18th Century) invention However some recnty historical investigations have suggested that such a device may have been
in use a lot earlier in coal based economies of North East England
and in parts of Germany as early as 2 centuries before.

- Finicular railways...
- Difficult to do in BVE but not impossible
(OF course a furnicular line for a monastry worked on water
power is more plausible than the above.)
Not sure how you would do the power settings in BVE though ;-)

- O Rileys Mine - The 'Tradiatonal' Mining line..
In terms of carts- Prop supported tunnels etc..
Of course if your wanting a fantsay line then
Dwarf gold mines and so on come into it.
(I'd called the sceanrio O-Rileys mine in case
anyone wanted to do a fnatays Irish line and
some little green men;-) )

- Drax Deep - Would need research but this could be and acurate
potrayal of Modern mineral/solid fuel extraction
operations such as those used by the former
Britsh Coal/NCB operations in the UK.
(Drax being the name of one such site in W Yorks?)

So far a number of countries have featured in BVE but I haven't yet
heard of routes showing
India, Russia, China, The Netherlands, Switzerland, Wales or Man
(all of ehich are great railway nations for various reasons

And there is STILL no Toytown express.. :-(

And one final idea come from the world of current affairs!..

It is 2004 and reconstruction of the infrastructure in a
certain gulf state is continuing. In order to improve the
oppurtuinites in the captial, the transportation of the captials
6 million citens around the city is to be made a priority.

A possible option is the construction of Subway.

So does anyone have any ideas what it might look like
or possible routes?

Current thinking sugessts a US involvement in reconstruction but
that doesnt nessacrily mean the subway will use Amercian standards
or practice. European or even Russian enginerring and technology may be used instead given previous involvment in the region.
(Alternativly the reconsturction body may look at examples
elsewehere in the region such as Cairo or Theran.)


The traction 'power' would of course be electric,
but in a country with oil it seems sensible that
any generating station would be oil fired as opposed
to other availble power sources like wind or Hydro-electric
schemes..

Any thoughts on what the Tigris Banks Subway might look like?

(Unless of course anyone can think of a more suitable Arabic
name for a transit system in Bagdhad.)

Alex


(Owing to the number of BVE forums now operating permission is granted
for others to propoate this message to those forums provided it remains intact and this notice is not removed.)

[Stooopid_person]

You sure have lots of ideas!

[alex_farlie]

>You sure have lots of ideas!

Yes I do.

But I am wnating to concentrate on specfic projects which
is why I'm posting them here.

If you want even more take a look at some of the one listed
in relation to the 2MC at Saxon Loco Works.... :-)

I don't know enough to do some of them though :-(

Alex

[IRT_BMT_IND]

A bahgdad subway. that would be cool. (in the BVE version, put up ads in the stations for al-jazeera and EL-AL)

[JulieADriver]

>A bahgdad subway. that would be cool. (in the BVE version,
>put up ads in the stations for al-jazeera and EL-AL)

I don't think El Al ads (or anything Israeli) would be a wise idea...

[D2UK JLE Line]

hahahah lol toytown express...
is that the one out of noddy by any chance?

[alex_farlie]

>hahahah lol toytown express...
>is that the one out of noddy by any chance?

Noddy does feature a Toytown express but it was
a generic Toytown/Toyland I was thinking of when
I suggested the route.

You are however correct, althought I'm not sure the
railways in Enid Blyton's works are ever identified as such.

In most potrayls I've seen of Toyland's trains they seem to
be a much rose tinted view of 1950's British secondary lines
or branches. (Not Suprising given that EB had a connection with
area served by the Western Region and GC route..

However, it seems that in British potrayls toylands trains seem
in the most part to also be reflection of one of the true great
model manafacturers- Hornby and thier tinplate 'O' gauge range.

IMO A toyland route from Britian may therfore be very simmilar
to those described in Noddy and others childrens works..

A 'Toytown' route from Germany or the US would have substantail differences, not just because of differing manfacturers and operational practices on the prototype but because childhood 'tradtions' and folklore is different in other
cultures.

A british route might have tin grenadiers in traditonal
uniforms on the platform of a tinplate station whereas

A US 'toytown' might have a fort, western township and
cavalry close by... (And a lot of minature model horses!)

(BTW That gves me a differnt idea, any want to try and produce
an 1890 version of Desert Frieght?.. Which could of course be on
narrower gauge IIRC Railroad history.. Thene there's the
Cavalray, Indians, Pioneers etc to deal with..)

Of course there are many towton routes that could be made.

Another issue that comes up is that of colour tones..

The process used for painting on 'tinplate' and other materials
has varied over time and so to get a toyland route 'perfect' needs to be acreful about color choices.

Alterntivly you could carry the ideas about childhood memory,
and past rail fanning and use.
- Ivo Peters 8mm Color - (Erm can someone older explain what I
mena by this. It has something to do with a particular brand
of film favoured by rail entusiats in the 1960's as Steam
declined in the UK.)
- Black and White...
- 'Disney' tone - As people rmemebr the color technquies used
in animation.
- Tinplate enamal colors( which of course fade over time..)

Some other ideas which aren't strcitly toyland
but included here for the sake of vaguely simmilar grouping)

Marklin Z- I'm sure Martin Finken(and others)
could think of a way of doing
a route to showcase the worlds 'smallest' model railway.
If he reads this forum (I think he does) then I'm sure
he'd welcome the challange ?


L-G-B - (Not a ukr thread[1] ;-)) but a potrayal of a very popular
Garden rail system..

'Over scaling' has been done in MSTS (albiet to get Narrow Gauge to
work with standard gauge geometries). Perhaps BVE route authours could
take this further and produce detailed 'model' routes that are nonethelss drivable with BVE..

Look forward to some 'model railway' and 'Toytown'
ideas in BVE routes... :-)
(And not just from a UK,US,DE perspective..)

Alex

[1] In joke to those here that read uk.railway..
(they will know what I a refer to ;-) )
Don't mention W**dh**d T****l (which is another
possible route idea ;-) )

[alex_farlie]

>>A bahgdad subway. that would be cool. (in the BVE version,
>>put up ads in the stations for al-jazeera and EL-AL)
>
>I don't think El Al ads (or anything Israeli) would be a
>wise idea...

Quite right too..

Probably be ads for Coca Cola though...
they seem to get EVREYWHERE :-)

Anoyne offering to build such a route?
(IIRC correctly someone was planning on doing a fictional
Bahrani subway. It was mentioned on Crotrainz before the
forum got closed.

Perhaps the TBS would also be of intrest to them?)

Alex

[mailer_diablo]

>
>Probably be ads for Coca Cola though...
>they seem to get EVREYWHERE :-)
>

For the Middle East, maybe it's Mecca Cola...:P

[Stooopid_person]

Hey! You got your old username back!

[mailer_diablo]

Yeah, my second account had login problems again, so this is the third one. (It's starting to annony me x()

[jgulbis]

After reading some of your ideas yesterday, I came up with one of my own: The Roman Subway, circa 100 AD. The cars wouldn't be powered of course, they would be pushed out of the stations by Christian slaves that you could hear being whipped and ordered to push when the train is ready to depart. The tunnel after the station would have a downhill grade to aid the train's acceleration. The brake mechanism would probably consist of a lever that would press some type of brake shoe against one of the wheels, so the brakes would be extremely weak; there would be a steep uphill grade to aid in braking, but if you don't brake in time, you would end up going right through the next station, or if you brake too early, you would end up being stuck in the tunnel and they would have to bring the horses into the tunnel via an access tunnel to pull the train up to the next station. Since this can't be replicated in BVE, you'd have to restart the route and try again, so this route would be quite challenging to drive. The tunnel and station walls would consist of big blocks of carved stone with Romanesque arches in the ceilings and columns holding up the ceilings in the stations. The stations would be lit by torches mounted in the walls for night-time routes and by skylights in the ceilings for day routes. The cars would be made of wood and when the train accelerates, you could hear the wheels squeak and rumble along the track, but instead of conventional track, the train would run in a wide groove along the floor, or maybe some primitive sort of track made of wood and lined with steel.

[IRT_BMT_IND]

>After reading some of your ideas yesterday, I came up with
>one of my own: The Roman Subway, circa 100 AD. The cars
>wouldn't be powered of course, they would be pushed out of
>the stations by Christian slaves that you could hear being
>whipped and ordered to push when the train is ready to
>depart. The tunnel after the station would have a downhill
>grade to aid the train's acceleration. The brake mechanism
>would probably consist of a lever that would press some type
>of brake shoe against one of the wheels, so the brakes would
>be extremely weak; there would be a steep uphill grade to
>aid in braking, but if you don't brake in time, you would
>end up going right through the next station, or if you brake
>too early, you would end up being stuck in the tunnel and
>they would have to bring the horses into the tunnel via an
>access tunnel to pull the train up to the next station.
>Since this can't be replicated in BVE, you'd have to restart
>the route and try again, so this route would be quite
>challenging to drive. The tunnel and station walls would
>consist of big blocks of carved stone with Romanesque arches
>in the ceilings and columns holding up the ceilings in the
>stations. The stations would be lit by torches mounted in
>the walls for night-time routes and by skylights in the
>ceilings for day routes. The cars would be made of wood and
>when the train accelerates, you could hear the wheels squeak
>and rumble along the track, but instead of conventional
>track, the train would run in a wide groove along the floor,
>or maybe some primitive sort of track made of wood and lined
>with steel.

They wpould probably not be pulles by slaves, they would be puylled by a chain of some sort

[JulieADriver]

>They wpould probably not be pulles by slaves, they would be
>puylled by a chain of some sort

No, they would be pulled by slaves. The Romans were not kind to their enemies. }>

[jgulbis]

They wouldn't be pulled, the slaves would be at each station and when the train would be ready to depart, they would get behind the train and push it into the tunnel where the downhill grade would accelerate the train fast enough to roll to the next station.

[JulieADriver]

I wonder how you say "Heave, HO!" in Latin...

[alex_farlie]

>After reading some of your ideas yesterday, I came up with
>one of my own: The Roman Subway, circa 100 AD.

Hmm Like your ideas!...

Bit like the Arhcitecture of the Roman Baths in Bath (where else)
then?

However, I will say that you don't nessacrily need slave power.

Graity/Water based funciular or cable hauled would have been
well within the technology of the roman Empire.

A 'rope' hauled system suitably geared would only have needed
power at some fixed point (be it animal,slave or water wheel)


In terms of Guidance you might have slotted stone work in the
base of the tunnel- ( The best modern example I can think of
are the Brio Wooden Trains..) Of course the possibility of coming
off at switches might have been overcome.

You've got me thinking as well..

The earliest known 'modern' style rialway, plateway type
scheme is around 1500 in German mining?

However I'm sure (barring Atlantis) that an early civalisation
could have developed a simple 'rail' like transport device.
Even if it is just funicular driven on a gravity, water type system.

And some Archimedian screws to bring water up ;-)

Anyone want to try and do an ancient civilisations railway in BVE?

The other civilisation that might have had earlier 'railways'
is China. Based on thier 'indepdent' technological development
I wouldnt be suprised if in an alterantve universe there might
not have been a simple steam engine earlier then in the west..

Hmm.. There's even the possibility of simple technology 'funiculars'
in Japan, which until a certian date was closed to outsiders...

Alex

[IRT_BMT_IND]

If the roman subwya idea uses downgrades to power the trains, how would the trains get back up the hills at the end of the line.

[mailer_diablo]

A simple solution is to make it a circle loop. :-)

[jgulbis]

yeah, a circular route with nothing but down-hill gradients, more of a downward spiral than a circle, LOL

[Stooopid_person]

>yeah, a circular route with nothing but down-hill gradients,
>more of a downward spiral than a circle, LOL

Remmeber, I showed the picture of a train going downhill with pitch -7000 at Crotrainz? I was coasting and travelling at 300km/h.

[jgulbis]

Wow, an 82 degree downhill slope eh? What route are you gonna use that on? haha. I've experimented with gradients and the steepest I've done is -1000, (-100%), that's only a 45 degree slope. That has the same affect, the train goes 300 km/h and the brakes are totally useless in slowing it down.

[IRT_BMT_IND]

The Downward test route. I have that route. It is sooo funny.

[Stooopid_person]

>and the brakes are totally useless in slowing it
>down.

I modified my brakes to 100km/h/s

[smace]

I love this thread. I have had several ideas generated from here that should be fun, not useful, but fun. Maybe we need to start a Special Interset Group for Fantasy and Toy Railroads :) or some one host a contest for this class of systems.

[Piccadilly_Line]

No shortage of them here Alex!

NETram began as an Alex Farlie idea BTW ;).

Baghdad subway... The Blair Line, The Bush Line and The Powell Line , Coalition Central ;) ;) ;) .

--
Tom Beevers
http://brj.rr.nu

[alex_farlie]

>No shortage of them here Alex!
>
>NETram began as an Alex Farlie idea BTW ;).
>
>Baghdad subway... The Blair Line, The Bush Line and The
>Powell Line , Coalition Central ;) ;) ;) .
>
>--
>Tom Beevers
>http://brj.rr.nu

Hi TB2000- (bTW If you want propogate the ideas back to
the other froum feel free- Just say where you got them from
though :-) )

In terms of the Tigris bank Subway...

The 'fictional' plan I had in mind was 2-3 lines to start with,
thier names not being based on the conflict ;-) but the Arabic
words for Peace, Hope and Future..

Obviosuly the Peace line would be one of the first lines
to be built. The intention is to link the new Govenrment District
in the heart of the city with the Airport..

As I don't have detaild city knowledge about Baghdad I don't
wont to comment on what station names might be. Genrally they
will be location based, although names related to the former
regime may change to earlier ones.

It is unlikley that station names will feature Bush or Blair
prominently. However names may of course feature names that are
appropriate in respect of figures in Iraqi life or history.
BTW There is however a station which translates as
Liberation Sqaure.


I've also heard on a newsgroup in response to a posting
about teh Tigris Bank Subway idea that trams in Bagdahd
may be better suited to it's streets..
(The trouble is I can't think of any opearting examples.)

Of course in an oil country such trams might not nessacrily
be electric, and could in all reason be suitably
adapted buses or bus designs! ( but not the 'Axles of evil;
that the Class 14x represent ;-) )

In answer to the other individual.

I've got no objections to MSTS or Trainz users producing
toy or fansty lines either, provided there non-commerical
available efforts where the creative respect is all that is
asked for.

They were posted here because some of them were posted on
the BVE forum at (you know where). I recomend BVE because
of the ease of coding and the fact that neither of the other
sims could run on my equipment choice.
BVE does...

BTW Tom- I like NETram...
I do however have some areas I'd like to disscuss :-)
(PM me on the other forum or mail. )

60's Bracnhline you say? Don't forget to do it in
Ivo Peter's rail-film color ;-) (I'll explain on request.)

I know you are busy but you'll soon be into summer and
have reaserch time :-)

So far you seem to have active projects in terms of.

- Picadilly V3.. - (I advise trying to get some 1970's
pictures of various stations in order to get the
historical routes looking right.)


-60's Branch Line
and


- NETram - (PM Me)
BTW the GT6 is'nt out of place as a
quick check in the Northernville archives
at Stamford Central Library reveals( :-) )

(sorry if this is too long!

Apparently during a German air raid in 1941 some of
newer cars were destroyed by incendairys and subquent
'direct' hit on a local gas main.

Other bombs fell in the high street where it seems
a series of major explosions and subsequent fires
devastated the area.

As a strageic precaution a portion of the trams
then in use by NTC had been parked in the tram tunnel
at Town Hall Square- (which was also used as a command
centre by the local ARP and Home Gaurd.) and at a second
(undisclosed in sources of 1972) location.
Some of this stock was of of pre-war and in some cases
pre WWI vintage!!

Folowing the raid, dsruption to normal routes continued
for a few days, but by the following Monday a 'normal'
service had all but been restored except understabnably
down the High Street.

The loss of some of the stock was of course a major
concern to NTC, but little could be done under wartime
conditons. NTC bravely continued with the old stock
well into early 1949.

However in 1946, documents were discovered in
Germany that seemed to suggest the bombs on the
tram depot and the High Street were not 'accidents'
but a calculated and cold 'revenge' by a senior ranking
Nazi who had been on the raid to observe it's expected
success.

However the raid was not succussful, the intended
target being well protected by local AA forces.
After the Gemran Bomber group sufferd heavy losses the
officer was reported to have exclaimed (In German) 'If
they will try to kill us, we will kill them,
kill them all!'
It was obvious to those on the plane what he meant.

The officer concerned was late indicted on
war crimes charges not by allied forces, but the
population of his own home town in Germany, such was
the shock that the local population felt when the
full consequences of the 1941 raid were known to them.

By a stranage coincidence the town also happend to
have a major facility for the overhaul of trams.
This facility not only mantained it's own trams but
those of other local communities.

It was felt by the manager of the facility as well as
the mayor(?) of the town that some gift to Northernville
as a gesture of re-conciliation would be a good idea.

So it was that in 1947, the facility secretly began
construction of a mildy modification of a standard
german design for use in Great Britan. A delivery would
be ready by August 1948

It was a rather suprise to Alderman Smith when his phone rang
one afternoon in Novmber 1948.It was the Ministry of Supply(?)
It seemed that someone in Germany
had contacted British authorites concerning a 'gift' destined for
Northenville. The Alderman replied thet he didn't know of any 'gift'
but was reassuared that the ministry was looking into the matter
through diplomatic and FCO channels.

The situation rapidly developed and early in 1949, a party from
Nothernville accompanied (by then Mayor) Smith met thier counterparts
in Germany. Following a memorial service for those killed in the hostilities, both parties were taken to a shed at the 'tram' facility.

Inside were 12 new trams all destined for Nothernville!
Mayor Smith asked who the trams were for.
His German conuterpart said there were for Nothernville.
nmayor Smith asked Why?
His German counterpart then explained that there could
be no price placed on what had happened to Northernville,
and stated that the trams were a recognition of the collective
guilt and shame thier community felt about the 1941 raid.

Mayor Smith graciously accepted the gift.

Thus in 1949, and throughout the 1950's the German trams could
be seen on Northernville's streets. Indeed, when some of the NTC
fleet was sue for replacement in 1956, the order (much to
the derison of some newspapers) was placed with the same German
facility.

However during the 1960's increasing competion from both
motor bus operators and the rapid increase in private car
ownership cut deeply into the budget of the (by now) muncipally
controlled NTC.

It was a sad day in 1965 when both the German trams (and remaing
British ones) rolled into the depot for the last time. Most returned to Germany, a few went musuems. However at least one tram was converted to a permanant and staionry memorial to those who had died in the 1941 raid.

It was thought until very recently that the 'closure' of the NTC system in 1965 would mark the end of the story.

However, recent (2000) plans under consideration as part of
a new Regional Plan for the Stamford NT area include trams,
Whilst the German facilty of 1949 no longer trades, it seems likley
that the German post-war experience with Light Rail will play
a major part in the new Stamford system. It has also been
suggsted that some of the 1949 trams STILL running in Germany
would return to Northenville as 'heratige units'...

How's that for background thinking tb2000?

Alex

















































Alex

[1] GNU/MIT sense

[nigelb]

Alex, sometime if your not using your creative writing talent, may I borrow it? Wow - by any chance are you a profesional writer?

Please excuse - I know this is a bit off-topic, but it had to be said.

[Piccadilly_Line]

Flippin 'eck Alex, how long is that?!

Re the closure...

The track was retained from Odeon Jcn to Railway Station (past City Interchange) for access to an industrial works. After campaigns from the residents due to the rubbish bus service after a takeover from First, a limited tram service was reinstated. Money was tight and trams were made up of old double deckers which had been stored on the disused track in Town Hall Square (the line had been singled), coupled in pairs. One of the pair had a diesel engine fitted in place of one bay of seats : the electric motors often broke down. After a derailment when a motor gave up the ghost and fell onto the track (!) the whole service was withdrawn. A lot of H$E paperwork followed. Northernville Transport Corperation staff stumbled upon a collection of about 20 historic NTC tramcars which someone had stored in a custom built garage in their backyard! Agreements were made, bypassing H$E checks on new rolling stock due to grandfather rights, and a service was soon restored. Around this time the Sheffield Supertram was re-equipping with new rolling stock and old supertrams were bought and reused on a web of old routes which had been reinstated rather cheaply. Just before the trams stopped running, an act of parliament was passed which stated that any tram systems should not be tarmac'd over but steel girders placed on top of the old road, followed by steel sheets on which the new tarmac could be laid. The idea was that should the routes be needed again they could easily be reinstated, and it worked! The Supertrams ran all the routes, with the twin double deckers occasionally filling in for a supertram under repair, and supplementing them in Peak Hours. Managers thought it would be a good idea to Scrap them, and they were accordingly loaded onto the backs of lorries. Just as one was about to leave, a worker at a power station slipped and fell between two extreamly high voltage contacts, frying himself and cutting off the power. The H$E decided to close it down for investication and so went the NTC's electricity. The diesel tramcars provided a skeleton service, with recently withdrawn class 144 pacers helping. Around 2025, the Supertrams fell for replacement. Jobs in Northernville were getting very hard to find. Then, the Mayor had an idea...

Time for lunch, the sequal comes later.

--
Tom Beevers
http://brj.rr.nu

[Piccadilly_Line]

The Sequal :

He had recently read a newspaper article about modern children knowing very little about history. After some contacts with the Government, it was established that Northernville would be converted into a history learning centre for children and adults alike. It would be run in a 1950's style. Of course the trams would play a major part in this. Amazingly, 30 1870's built tramcars, withdrawn after WWI and sent to help Czechoslovakians set up a tram system in Prauge, were found in service on peak hour services in Prauge. They were repatriated and restored. Each of the 24 repatriated cars (2 had been damaged in a WWII bombing raid and 4 were damaged beyond repair in a depot collision the day before shipping to the UK) had a different style, ranging from the origional 1870s livery right through to the 2023 introduced livery of Prauge Transport which they carried. The historical town of Northernville opened for the public to visit and to live in on 16th April 2030. Response was huge, and several replica 1940's road coaches were built to ferry schoolchildren in from all over the country. Several people at the reopening ceremony had lived in the town during the 1950s and commented on how everything was correct : one even said the chips at Stooopid's Chippy were still famously undercooked! A H$E inspection soon sorted that though! The town continues to thrive both as a tourist attraction and a town for people to live in and should do well into the future.

Plenty of scope for route variations there then!

--
Tom Beevers
http://brj.rr.nu

[alex_farlie]

>Alex, sometime if your not using your creative writing
>talent, may I borrow it?
>?Wow - by any chance are you a
>profesional writer?
>
>Please excuse - I know this is a bit off-topic, but it had
>to be said.

Ahhh, My secret's out ;-)

Ok Folks I'm a pan dimensional entity currently
residing at the fashaionable NW end of the Metropolitan line.
I used to goto college in islington. Nuff Said ... ;-)

No I'm not a proffesional writer, not evem an amatuear one
at that.

I just seem to be good at coming up with ideas for both routes
and plausibel reasons for why certain things can happen in
respect of backgorund contexts.

If you were needing a route idea I've got several but if
you were needing something more specfic for a route already
underway then I'd need to see a 'story' brief at least.

Alex

[Routemaster J]

dear me, do you do nothing else but dream?

Anyway, I have been doing some dreaming too, and I though of a Legoland BVE route? (sorta toytown?!) Where every thing had those studs in standard colors? (could use the Cylinder command to make the round studs.)

Or am I just thinking of a way to add to this loooooong list of ideas?

[alex_farlie]

>dear me, do you do nothing else but dream?
>

I do other things, like try to figure out why a
university lecturer assured me in 1997 that on
graduation I'd walk into a computing job...

>Anyway, I have been doing some dreaming too, and I though of
>a Legoland BVE route? (sorta toytown?!) Where every thing
>had those studs in standard colors? (could use the Cylinder
>command to make the round studs.)
>
>Or am I just thinking of a way to add to this loooooong list
>of ideas?

I had a simmilar idea but concluded that do all the studs in
BVE would have a detrimental effect on frame rates.. :-(

I also had doubts about the ability to include all those minor
details beloved of thos that build with the bricks..

That's not to say that a Legoland route would be impossible..

Of course you only have 1 fixed radius of curve to work with,
the gauge isn't excatly standrard and you would need to overscale
some dircetions to get proptions looking right..

Difficult but not impossible.

Alex