KRS World Editor

[OTTODAD]

Hi !

Came across this today I have not read properly before:

http://www.railsimulator.com/en/world_editor.htm

This will answer a few questions which are being asked, in particular the one about the length of a route !

Hope you find it of as much interest as I did ! ;-)

It does not specifically say anything about distributing routes made for one's own use, using material created by KUJU which may be subject to Copyright. Will have to wait and see what the EULs are going to state.

O t t o

[muskokaandtahoe]

It seems they recognized how incredibly flawed MSTS RE is. Its UI is a textbook example of an ergonomic disaster. A route editor is nothing more than a VERY simple cad tool. Cad tools have numeric precision -- use the numeric keyboard! Cad tools make extensive use of snaps, either snap-to-something-else or snap-to-offset-from-something-else -- provide the right functions! Anybody that has ever wanted to place an object n feet from the track and rotate it 90 degrees, knows instantly what an utter failure RE is as an editor.

I do worry about whatever is behind the word "easy". MS has that in mind whenever they change MS Word.... Easy route editing... take for example terrain textures. I can accept that most folks find terrtex creation very difficult to do. I still find is hard. And at the same time I'm very wary of the idea of building into a route editor something that's meant to subsitute for a real image software package -- Corel, Adobe, whatever. A Kujo tool that complements the others, sure, sounds great. Subsitute? I dunno about that.

Easy track placement... I wtched the video, I can see there are advantages to that approach. However I'd be very dismayed if -- going back to the cad tool functions -- I cannot specify precise lengths, curvature, and parallel offsets as needed. As w/o that, it's not easy, it's simply become a fast, rigidly stupid, way to lay track. Right mouse click into a numeric entry menu would do wonders here as it would allow the user to choose between roughing it in with only the track laying tool and right clicking to do fine editing as needed.

Terrain/vertex sculpting... far too difficult to do w/o offering multiple deformation templates -- consider how handy a sphere tool would be to depress (or lift) vertexes as compared to what is done in MSTS RE. Or a wedge. And while it's a real pain to do, editing individual vertexes is still occasionally necessary so keeping that function would be wise. Inclusion of a filtering mechanism (think of the mouse drawing a line to create a closed polygon) would greatly enhance the ease of doing such editing.

Making copies... select the source, enter how may copies you want and how far apart they are to be and then where the nearest is to fall. Bang! A line of poles, fence, trees. Inclusion of a randomizing offset makes it even more useful for trees.

[b]Dave Nelson
SLW Route Design: The Cal-P, 1950.[b]
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[SurvivorSean]

What I'd certainly be happy with is a route editor that is going to be simple and fast enough to allow the less experienced user to get routes, or unsceniced routes up fast. From there perhaps it should also be open ended enough so that an add-on program or utility can go in and make the custom more detailed changes necessary if the main editor doesn't support this.

All in all it sounds promising, and I believe a route will be much more editable (in other words not crash on you because of an index or memory issue) when you go back in to finish or fine tune the job. Something that totally frustrated me to the point I didn't want to bother completing anything with MSTS RE.

Thanks

Sean

[OTTODAD]

I think we can look forward to a much improved route editor, Sean !

After all it is being used by their own programmers, who should find bugs long before they are passing it on to us ! ;-)

O t t o

[SurvivorSean]

Yeah but didn't Kuju use their own editors too with MSTS (if I recall correctly)? Now your scaring me :) But I'm optimistic it will be better.

Thanks

Sean

[OTTODAD]

Hi Sean !

The editor KUJU used was just about good enough to create the default MSTS routes with and they knew all it's limitations then.

What they did not envisage was what some of our inventive and genius route creators like SNIPER and TREEFROG were likely to use it for, getting it and MSTS to do things they never dreamed of were possible ! ;-)

I spent all day today adding a reverse loop to the MP3K-2006's turntable at Whitefish, rather than have a WYE for turning locos around like the WHITEFISH-6. I also added a large reverse loop for turning long freight trains around, shown here in the background:

http://forums.flightsim.com/vbts/up1/107842.jpg

What took me so long to get perfection was not creating the reverse loops, the tracks of the turntable loop can be hidden if desired, it was adjusting the terrain so that the base of the turntable becomes visible ! The loop has been made invisible here:

http://forums.flightsim.com/vbts/up1/107843.jpg

Having finally managed to get rid of the grassy terrain in the base of the turntable, doing that created gaps between the outer rim and the terrain in some places, I eventually covered with a drivers cabin and workshop/tool shed ! ;-)

http://forums.flightsim.com/vbts/up1/107844.jpg

It seems that terrain takes precedence over the turntable base and one just can not cut out a circle to sink the turntable base into it, the terrain mesh being so coarse that embankments can also not be shaped properly, some using "Berms" to improve on that, not always ideal either, not matching the terrain textures.

I wonder how the KRS World Tool will deal with this ? I hope it will make it lot easier than what I had to go through to achieve perfection in MSTS ! ;-)

O t t o

[Hack]

>After all it is being used by their own programmers, who should find bugs long before they are passing it on to us !

Nuttiest thing I've heard you say in a while, Otto. Ever wonder why tools are passed to us without support?

Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com

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[OTTODAD]

After all it is being used by their own programmers, who should find bugs long before they are passing it on to us !

Nuttiest thing I've heard you say in a while, Otto. Ever wonder why tools are passed to us without support?

I am talking about the KRS World Editor, part and parcel of KRS, which I am sure will be supported as well as KRS itself, [/b]EA[/b] will see to that, Marc ! ;-)

Would make sense to eliminate as many bugs as possible they themselves have found using it before releasing it to save themselves a lot of trouble ?

I always thought that supplying the MSTS Route Editor was an afterthought, somebody at Microsoft realizing that providing one for route builders could enhance sales of MSTS ? Seems to have been an even more last minute rushed job then MSTS itself was !

Take care, O t t o.

[rgarber]

Ottos is right. I'm not sure how right though.. but he is right in theory that if Kuju means to includes the editor with the package, this time, then the chances of the editor being less problematic stands a good chance of happening.

As I understand it, the editors were not to be included in MSTS the first go round. Supposedly MS forced the editors to be included but labeled them as unsupported since they weren't as polished or tested as they should have been to get the program out to us. Most of us agree the RE, for 1990's software, is fairly good. A blend of easy and sophistication where much of what we want to do we can. Given that it is 1990's technology, there is hardcoded material that if we had access to, with the onset of the newer technology would have helped us to keep up with what's available today. It was a great first effort that became a failure only because the sim was left to falter with no support.

I saw people posting where they were just as willing to let PI release a half-finished sim were it not for their insistence in saying 'we'd come back and fix it later.' Nobody really knew that was ever going to happen. And now with it disappearing completely, you'll likely respond to them with their next appearance (if it happens which I doubt) the same way as you do to Kuju.

So, deserved or not, it doesn't change that if Kuju uses their own editors and staff to do the routes it's only common sense they'd fix bugs as they came across them. That's just common sense. If they outsource all route development then... well... there's always MSTS???



Rich Garber

Edit: Otto, you can use the V key to take out polys over the well portion of the turntable making it a little easier to not disturb the surrounding terrain.

[Hack]

>I am talking about the KRS World Editor

For crying out loud, Otto. No kidding?

>which I am sure will be supported <snip>, [/b]EA[/b] will see to that, Marc ! ;-)

Yeah, pull the other one, Otto. Pure speculation without any factual basis. Did you happen to know that EA does not condone the use (or distribution) of tools? If tools are released, it's more likely because Kuju convinced EA it's good for train-biz, rather than EA coming up it on their own. If it were up to EA alone, they probably wouldn't include anything in the package except routes and trains (and maybe a paintkit for the latter). That, I'm certain of.

Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com

[link:www.3dtrains.com/products/index.shtml|http://www.3dtrains.com/images/pro_funit_atsfmain.jpg]

Pro Series v4.0 SuperPacks

[djt]

“And now with it disappearing completely, you'll likely respond to them with their next appearance (if it happens which I doubt)”


Won’t you be surprised, disappearing completely, not likely.

On the professional side of things it just keeps getting bigger and bigger by the week.

[rgarber]

Do I detect a little grudge here Dannyboy? When I said disappearing completely, I was refering to tmts not the professional version trainmaster. What PI does on the professional side is none of my concern, couldn't give a wit, means nada, borrrrinnnggggggg, get the point? Become rich, sell your soul, sell out your friends, see if I care what happens to you. Or are you mincing words again and telling us you guys are back into screwing us again? You ought to have learn from the last time Dave to becareful what you say as an employee of that outfit. You guys did a real nice job playing with words last time, why shouldn't anybody think your not doing the same here again.

Rich G

[djt]

“Do I detect a little grudge here Dannyboy?”

No grudges here Richie, I’ve got more important things to tend to.

“When I said disappearing completely, I was referring to tmts not the professional version trainmaster.”

So was I.

Sorry Rich but P.I. has a lot better things to do than to “screw” the train sim community. You have to remember that neither P.I. nor Kuju for that matter, owe the train sim community anything.

“Selling out my friends”? My friends in the railroad industry are actually very happy with what I am going to be able to supply them with.

[rgarber]

"No grudges here Richie, I’ve got more important things to tend to."

So what you doin' around here DannyBoy?

"So was I."

Oh so you're ready to announce PI is back in the train sim business? Or is this just some more of PI's cuteness?

"You have to remember that neither P.I. nor Kuju for that matter, owe the train sim community anything."

Oh, you made that quite clear the first go round. ;-)

"My friends in the railroad industry..."

I like that... YOUR friends in the RAILROAD industry. Your arrogance so becomes you. ;-) SoooOOO, is this like rubbing stuff in our face kinda stuff? Count me now, like it was before, as one of those who is quite glad, content actually, that I was never one of YOUR friends in the TRAIN SIM industry. :-)

You take care Dannyboy.


Richie :-)

[djt]

“that I was never one of YOUR friends in the TRAIN SIM industry”

Yeah Richie, we go way back, you and me, after a couple of phone calls were old friends.

Come on Rich you’re really scaring us now.

[djt]

“I like that... YOUR friends in the RAILROAD industry. Your arrogance so becomes you.”

How is this arrogance, people usually make friends when they work with someone day in and day out for years.

I think it’s “Medication Time” Rich.

[rgarber]

Dannyboy, you really need to read what I wrote and not what you think I wrote. I didn't say you and I were friends after a couple of phone calls. I'm not sure how you're even getting that from what I wrote. But nope, never thought we were friends.

And apparently you thought it important enough to bring up all your friends in the railroad business. I don't see where it was ever relevant.

BTW, you're right, it is time for my meds; so you take care. :-)

Richie

Edit: And hey! What about that announcement Danny? Is PI coming back out with TMTS or was you just teasing us again? LOL!

[OTTODAD]

Were it up to EA alone, they probably wouldn't include anything in the package except routes and trains (and maybe a paint kit for the latter). That, I'm certain of.

That's precisely what I said in another discussion. If I were in that business then my attitude would be the same. If you want train simulator quality add-ons then pay for them ! ;-)

On the subject of support, Yeah, pull the other one, Otto. Pure speculation without any factual basis.

Perhaps this will tell you more about their intentions:
http://forums.flightsim.com/ts/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=27&topic_id=42&mesg_id=&page=&mode=full#222

O t t o

[SurvivorSean]

On the subject of PI, I'm a little happier in knowing that Kuju doesn't have plans for a pro simulator. I wouldn't want to get all my hopes shattered again :) I think I've already made my feelings clear over on the other forum on another simulator that was in development (and I'll leave it at that since this is Kuju's forum).

As for MSTS they most certainly did say that the editors were not supported, and I believe that indeed it was an afterthought, and something they didn't realize the community really insisted they needed. Once again for what it was it was a tremendous 1st effort that has stood the test of time. It's too bad it's replacement didn't come along a little sooner, but we've been taken on some good rides along the way.

Sure PI, Kuju, Auran, M$ owe us nothing. What bothers me is when companies announce intentions, and bring us along for the ride saying they're going to take us to paradise, when in fact their engines aren't too great and were forced to take a bus from the depot in the 120 degree desert if you know what I mean.

I can't say anything about Auran because I don't follow that simulator's progress (a little too model railroad for my liking). As far as Kuju I don't necessarily put them in the same perspective of MSTS 1 or 2 simply because they had different backing then that pulled the plug. So for now I'll stay optimistic and hope that some day not too far away a simulator will come about for us all to evaluate, and see what we can do with that.

Thanks

Sean

[djt]

“Sure PI, Kuju, Auran, M$ owe us nothing. What bothers me is when companies announce intentions, and bring us along for the ride saying they're going to take us to paradise, when in fact their engines aren't too great and were forced to take a bus from the depot in the 120 degree desert if you know what I mean.”

I think I would start to evaluate my life if you’re considering a train game or train simulator “paradise”.

What companies did not have the “great engines” and “forced you to take a bus from the depot in the 120 degree desert”. This sounds pretty serious to me.

[SurvivorSean]

Actually it's not very serious at all. Luckily for us when one void appears, someone else is there to take it's place. I didn't have much expectations for Kuju until TMTS left the field. Perhaps coincidental, it seems Kuju was ready to fill the niche left behind.

No hard feelings, I'll gladly upgrade my PC, fork out the cash, if they can deliver the goods. But just like any company right now that is going to put a simulator on the market, it has to deliver something. I suppose I'd be much more disappointed if nobody was there to fill in the void, but alas something is better than nothing. So I'll be happy to see what something has in store.

Thanks

Sean

[djt]

So what you doin' around here DannyBoy?

I was interested in seeing how long it would take certain individuals to pollute the Kuju forum.


“Oh so you're ready to announce PI is back in the train sim business? Or is this just some more of PI's cuteness?”

When did P.I. ever leave the train sim business? Did you mean train game business?


“I'm not sure how you're even getting that from what I wrote. But nope, never thought we were friends.”

Well that’s good you had me scared there for a minute. You never know with the all the freaks on the internet these days.


“And apparently you thought it important enough to bring up all your friends in the railroad business. I don't see where it was ever relevant.”

It’s relevant because I don’t know anyone one here at the so called “train sim community” personally to sell out as you put it. You’re forgetting that I’m from the railroad industry not a MSTS developer.

[rgarber]

Edit:

Nahhhhh... on second thought... you just ain't worth it. Too many better things to do than waste time with you.

It's amazing though how a company that thrilled people here with it's talk of support and the best SIM (note TMTS) would hire something like you to be a spokesperson.

Rich Garber

[djt]

“It's amazing though how a company that thrilled people here with it's talk of support and the best SIM (note TMTS) would hire something like you to be a spokesperson.”

Sorry Rich, I wasn’t hired to be a spokesperson.

[Hack]

>That's precisely what I said in another discussion.

You may have said it, but I don't believe you knew what you were saying. Your statement above is the complete opposite.

>Perhaps this will tell you more about their intentions:
>http://forums.flightsim.com/ts/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=27&topic_id=42&mesg_id=&page=&mode=full#222

I'm well aware of Kuju's announced intentions, Otto. You said "EA will see to that", which is why I quoted and replied to that particular snippet. Let's despense with the 'netiquette-101 and move on, shall we?

Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com

[link:www.3dtrains.com/products/index.shtml|http://www.3dtrains.com/images/pro_funit_atsfmain.jpg]

Pro Series v4.0 SuperPacks

[rgarber]

Yes, I know. I was being sarcastic.

Dannyboy it's worthless talking to you like I said before. You only want to throw insults yet like your company you elude to matters you won't answer specifically. Like I said, it's a waste of time dealing with you.

Rich Garber

[djt]

Yes Rich like many of us already know you can dish it out but you just can’t eat it.

By the way what are these matters that have not been answered specifically?

[rgarber]

Dannyboy, you're such a waste. Can't take it? Can't take what? This little drivel of high school insults? If you want to continue the fight, here's my email and I'll will be more than happy to indulge you. Check your private message box for more. It was sent last night, I've been wondering why you haven't answered yet.

What matters haven't been answered yet? Good grief. Not only are you not a spokesperson but you obviously don't read. Instead of me doing your homework Dannyboy, go back and read. What a total waste of time you are!

Luvin' it thought. Luv giving you PI boys a good time. :-)

Rich

[djt]

Sorry Rich I did not see your private message, I’ll check it now.

“Not only are you not a spokesperson but you obviously don't read.”

Rich if you had been able to comprehend what you were reading months ago you probable would not have all these so called unanswered matters.

[rgarber]

A post ago you didn't know what the matters were and now five minutes later from all your incredible deduction you find I'm totally at fault. Amazing.

Like I said, you're a waste of time. Your company is a waste of time.

And obviously your to cowardly to deal with me about this in email either.

Rich Garber

[rgarber]

Since your to lazy to do the homework Dannyboy, here's the gist of your request:


I wrote:

"And now with it disappearing completely,.." I wrote this in reference to tmts being postponed indefinetely. You then wrote...

You wrote:

Won’t you be surprised, disappearing completely, not likely. (underline mine)

Not likely disappeared Dannyboy, sounds like you and PI got something up your sleeve, so I asked you:

"Or are you mincing words again and telling us you guys are back into screwing us again? You ought to have learn from the last time Dave to becareful what you say as an employee of that outfit."

You quoted me and then wrote...

"“When I said disappearing completely, I was referring to tmts not the professional version trainmaster.”

So was I."

I then wrote:

"Oh so you're ready to announce PI is back in the train sim business? Or is this just some more of PI's cuteness"

And all you can do is deliver these high school petty insults. And now you ask me, what question? Shoot, a total waste of time. Get a spokesperson Dannyboy, you're just here to deliver insults cause I so badly spanked your badboy last time. Bitter is what you are. Appreciate you letting me dish it out to you again though. :-)

No email yet either.

Rich Garber

[rgarber]

oops.. I used train sim.. tmts was just a game to you... hope you can deal with our translation difficulties. tmts = train master train game.. not train master train sim. Either way, intended vaporware to deceive a community? You decide. ;-) Good that PI sends less than a spokesperson to clear up these difficulties even when it wasn't asked for.

Rich Garber