MSTS to KRS route conversions

[oakpalms]

It has already been determined that routes will not convert from MSTS to KRS. However, nothing has been stated about what items used to create a route can be used with KRS. For example, will Demex or some other terrain generating program be able to be used? Can markers created using Terraserver, USA photomaps, or some other program be used to build a KRS route?

Several route developers are currently working on MSTS routes--some of them may be completed within a short period of time. I would think it would be nice for them to know what files could be saved to create that same route for KRS. It would be bad for them, KRS, and users of KRS if such files were deleted once having finished the route feeling they were no longer needed. That might just be "the straw that breaks the camels back" and causes them not to make the route for use with KRS.

I think that some guidance from KRS as to what can be carried over from MSTS route building would be very helpful.

Bob Edwards

[OTTODAD]

Hi Bob !

I know next to nothing about terrain and it's textures other than what I have learned in these forums, working with Demex in a limited way and from using MSFS since day 1, but know that the outdated way MSTS is using terrain and it's mesh is history, to be replaced by something more in line with present day graphics technology.

I think that it is better to start again with better graphics and an up-to-date graphics engine than trying to make old stuff compatible ! ;-)

The Tracks and Roads used and I imagine their Databases will be totally different to the MSTS design also ! No point just converting the terrain and scenery in it and then having to re-lay all the tracks and roads with new ones. Might just as well do it again all new ! ;-)

O t t o

[CSX4878]

Well this is to bad to here because of all the amazing route we have out for MSTS.
Whitefish 6, Cascades Crossing, M&M, Hamiliton Norfolk, just to name a few.

[oakpalms]

Otto,

It would be nice to get remarks directly from KRS along these lines. We all know that the graphics engine will be totally new and we know that MSTS routes will not convert. However, there are many things needed to make a route prior to even inputing that information into Route Editor with MSTS or whatever simulator.

Terraserver and other mapping programs simply allow "markers" to indicate actual locations which can be used as an overlay on the ground terrain established by the route making function of the simulator so that the person can "lay" the exact locations of roads and tracks within the train simulator program whether it be MSTS or hopefully KRS. What I am asking for is whether these programs that help with gathering real railroad route and road locations can be used to plot them in the route making function that will be a part of KRS. If so, which ones can be used?

Kuju has informed us that 3d Canvas is the tool for making objects for KRS. It would be nice if they would tell us what "tools" can be used to help with developing routes. People now building routes might want to keep the data they have gathered so that it may be used to build that same route with KRS--providing KRS can use the program that they have used to gather that data for MSTS.

If route building is going to be as easy as Kuju indicates, some of us may want to start gathering markers for new KRS routes even before KRS is released so that we can start on route building immediately.

Bob Edwards

[oakpalms]

Otto,

Since KRS is using this new Ageia PhysX system of generating graphics which is described at the www.railsimulator.com web page, when are they going to let everyone know that we will have to purchase a new computer card in order to play the "game"? At least that is what the following webpage indicates.

According to http://usa.asus.com/news_show.aspx?id=2651
Asus will be one of only two companies that is making the card, and from what I have read it appears to be a replacement for current video cards in order to run the Ageia PhysX graphics system. I don't know anything about the Ageia PhysX graphics system that KRS is using, nor do I know just how it will work within the component section of the computer. Will it be a replacement for current video cards or will it be an add on card that will simply use an available slot?

I am not sure that many train sim users are going to want to jump to a new computer card in addition to a new game.

Bob Edwards

[OTTODAD]

Hi Bob !

http://www.ageia.com/physx/faqs.html

From what I gather the AGEIA PhysX processor comes on separate add-on cards, which software written for it can use. But if there is none installed then perhaps will just display graphics without the additional effects ?

I imagine that in order to make the most of present day graphics cards the latest in terrain mesh technology will be used. But what that is going to be KUJU is keeping stumm about at the moment. ;-)

No need to know that now anyway because until we get to use the KRS World editor we can do nothing !

Not being a graphics expert I would also imagine that MSTS objects made with TSM will improve by converting to better graphics with 3D-Canvas before it creates KRS graphics format files, but not sure how a certain poly texture can be improved with better graphics editors ?

KUJU themselves use the expensive 3DS MAX, which I dare say can produce better and more highly detailed objects for it's KRS graphics format files than anything else.

All we can do at the moment is read between the lines of KUJU announcements and make educated guesses as to what the end result could be ! ;-)

O t t o

[muskokaandtahoe]

> But if there is none installed then perhaps will just display graphics without the additional effects ?

That's generally the case. FWIW, Nvidia is experimenting w/ adding physics functions to it's own chips and when they do you can probably say goodbye to Ageia. See history of network cards as example.

> I imagine that in order to make the most of present day graphics cards the latest in terrain mesh technology will be used.
> But what that is going to be KUJU is keeping stumm about at the moment.

I don't quite understand what mesh technology could be... terrain is just another collection of polys. The only issues I can think of would be how small and does the size increase as you look farther away or is it a constant. IS there anything else to it?

The far more interesting open question about terrain is what kind of projection will KRS use to move dem data into the game: the skewed quadrilateral of MSTS* or a true square? IMO it would be a huge mistake to repeat the MSTS solution.



* For those that don't know, MSTS lifts a diamond shaped chunk of terrain out of the mapping data and twists it into a square tile in the game. This is why markers for 90 degree angle streets and tracks in maps become 78 degree angles in MSTS.

[b]Dave Nelson
SLW Route Design: The Cal-P, 1950.[b]
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y51/muskokaandtahoe/Avatars/Dancing_Genma.gif
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y51/muskokaandtahoe/Avatars/4ad3d633.jpg

[OTTODAD]

Not sure how that works, Dave, but would AGEIA not have taken out a Patent to protect their idea, like NOVELL did for the Server Clustering my son created for them, taking out 2 of them in his name ?

Here a two examples of displaying terrain in MSFS, they call Terramesh, you may know more about what they mean then me !

http://www.lagosim.com/default.asp?act=scheda&p=100007&lang=eng

http://www.lagosim.com/default.asp?act=scheda&p=100042&lang=eng

Similar having been done by the MEGASCENERY people !

O t t o

[rgrader]

One thing that is a given: The performance you are seeing in MSTS on your current computer will totally disappear with KRS. In other words, to get the same performance, or even near the same frame rate, *everyone* will have to buy a new computer. MSTS was built for computers several generations ago. KRS will not be. That will mean that there will be many people who will NOT make the switch.

Wyatt

[OTTODAD]

I am not sure whether you are reading this right, Wyatt.

I think that most gamers and simmers will update at least their graphics cards to get the best out of their software ! ;-)

MS can not slow down progress, constantly looking backwards and neither can the gaming industry. Once MS VISTA has been released, debugged and all of it working, users will have buy new computers to benefit from it, the industry also being badly in need of new business, being forced to almost give away computers at the moment ! :-(

O t t o

[muskokaandtahoe]

> but would AGEIA not have taken out a Patent to protect their idea....

Gravity is not patentable. All AGEIA can do is protect their chip design and it's methods of doing its work. Nvidia (and others) can do virtually identical results using different designs. The real issue here is whether the game market sees this as really useful or irrelevant. If it is, Nvidia will do it and if not, they won't.

> Here a two examples of displaying terrain in MSFS, they call Terramesh....

Not quite sure which of the two resolutions the mention are the one they're using but at any rate the best of the two mentioned is 10m. That's not bad at all for importing data (large portions of the US DEM data is at 10m resolution, with finer stuff on the way) but it doesn't say beans about what KRS will do with it. They could choose to retain the MSTS 8m vertex mesh... or go something better, 4m, 2M? Who knows?

[b]Dave Nelson
SLW Route Design: The Cal-P, 1950.[b]
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y51/muskokaandtahoe/Avatars/Dancing_Genma.gif
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y51/muskokaandtahoe/Avatars/4ad3d633.jpg

[rgrader]

I am not missing the point. However, *my* point is that there ARE people who cannot get the latest and greatest--pensioners, other fixed income, low income, people in unique situations, etc. Having said that, I am NOT saying that KUJU should lower the standards.

Let me give *one* case in point--mine.

I was one of the first to use MSTS, I upgraded equipment so I could use it. I decided to try a "rival" train sim, and became very involved in it, putting MSTS aside. I upgraded and upgraded, having a network of computers in my home, until....

I found myself in the situation that I am in now. I only have one computer, and it is a laptop. So, I have come back to MSTS because I *know* that it will run it and run it well. The future does not hold any prospect in getting a new computer, let alone a graphic card to put in the laptop...especially one, that it sounds like, would run KRS.

I, like many, was looking forward to MSTS-2, eagerly looking forward to it, as I believe that even with "old" technology, MSTS *simulates* train operations better than the rival that gets everyone in this site upset. (Yes, I realize that is an "allness" statement, one that can be easily discounted. I used the statement as a hyperbole, not as reality.)

Am I alone? I don't really think so. In fact, when MSTS first came out, there were people decrying that they couldn't upgrade to run MSTS adequately. And as that other train software increased in its capabilities, and required computer upgrades, people there also decryed the situation. And being flippant--which you haven't to date, but I am just stating this in case--and saying that if it is important enough, people will find a way to get the money, is just that, flippant. There are people who just *can't*, using the real meaning of the word, "not able to."

Does that mean that my not purchasing KRS will mean that KUJU will go bankrupt? Absolutely not. But what if 100 people are in the same situation? What if 1,000? Can that mean something to the investors?

Again, I am not saying that KUJU should lower the computer requirements. I am countering your "I think that most gamers and simmers will update at least their graphics cards to get the best out of their software" with I am not as sure as you. There are times when just upgrading the graphic card is not enough! That is your opinion, to which you are certainly entitled, and this is mine.

Wyatt

[OTTODAD]

Yes, Wyatt, we all have our views and being a 77 years old pensioner have accumulated a few of my own over the years, watching what goes on around me and in the world. ;-)

There are also youngsters who can not afford updates at the drop of a hat and others who unfortunately are unemployed, getting pleasure out of passing the time with their computers !

I imagine that KRS will run on all computers, old and new, but older computers will not benefit from all it's advances.

Do you run any of the latest games versions on your laptop and if so are you happy with their performance ?

Could be that staying with MSTS might be your best option and have KRS as a second string ?

O t t o

[SurvivorSean]

The technology curve has leveled off over the past few years since MSTS was released. I've had a P3/650 for some time and though I definately admit that I can't run everything, there is still many things that come along that I can at least run with lower settings on a PCI graphics card.

Bottom line is there are people out there who can upgrade, and there are people out there a little bit hungrier who'll upgrade quicker. I to am on a budget, but if the carot is big enough I'll find away. If not oh well!

Thanks

Sean

[OTTODAD]

Hi Sean !

The technology curve has leveled off over the past few years since MSTS was released.

I think it's going to rise again after MS-VISTA, DirectX-10 and with MSFS-X, or hope it will. Would grief me having spent a lot of money on a 64Bit Dual Core CPU and an ATI X1900XT PCI-Ecpress for nothing ! ;-)

Take care, O t t o.

[SurvivorSean]

We will see, I'm certainly overdue for a new computer. Since I don't need it yet (aka want it bad enough) I'm just going to wait for now. With the current tension in the east/middle east I think alot of markets would be cautious to try and push the envelope too fast. I feel something odd is going to happen this year that will put more necessitites to the front of the line, but that's just my gut instinct and nothing more.

There will always be enough people to upgrade regardless, and this time I'm willing to wait in line and see how good this simulator is before I dive in. But I'll certainly be watching.

Thanks

Sean

[rocky]

I'm always an optomist and as far as I can see there should be no theortical reason why you should not convert an MSTS route in batch mode to a new KUJU one as all the information is there EXCEPT FOR the shape data (you will need the object files) and, of course, any new or improved features which will need to be included.

But then I could be wrong as my wife often insists.

[OTTODAD]

I think the main problem could be that the MSTS Tracks and Roads Databases will not be convertible to the new KRS method of laying tracks, as well as different scripting for signaling ?

Have a look at this video:
http://www.railsimulator.com/en/Track%20Tool%20Video.htm

Have not seen what their switches will look like !

O t t o

[Hack]

>I think the main problem could be that the MSTS Tracks and Roads Databases will not be convertible to the new KRS
>method of laying tracks, as well as different scripting for signaling ?

Sniffing-out the MSTS track database is a relatively simple task. A set of default turnouts could be automatically added based on the diverging paths the converter reads in, or left to the user to "snap-in" a set of their own.

Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com

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[muskokaandtahoe]

> Sniffing-out the MSTS track database is a relatively simple task.

Yes, if you understand the data structure that is.

Wouldn't it be nice if Kujo built a simple scripting engine and command line input to their editor that would accept as input data derrived from MSTS .w and/or .tdb files? Done properly someone on our side could write a simple utility that reads the data from a MSTS route, translates the key info into terms acceptable by KRS and feeds the data into their editor. Bing! A converted route!

On the Kujo side one could make the argument that assisting the installed base in converting some portions of old routes could help sales... but I think it would be a hard argument to win. Too bad too... to paraphrase: "data is data is data, all you have to decide is what to do with it".

[b]Dave Nelson
SLW Route Design: The Cal-P, 1950.[b]
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y51/muskokaandtahoe/Avatars/Dancing_Genma.gif
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y51/muskokaandtahoe/Avatars/4ad3d633.jpg

[OTTODAD]

Hi Dave !

I can see nothing but problems trying to do that.

They apparently use a more innovative method of laying tracks, similar to the one used by TRAINZ, but with prototypical looking and functioning switches, we have yet to see samples of, not forgetting having to convert DYN tracks too. There also UK-Finescale and other non MSTS default tracks to be considered.

Looking into a route's Tracks Database and local Tsection.dat I can not imagine how it's contents can be translated into another system of completely different design and at the same time tell the equivalent of World files in a KRS route which KRS objects that data relates to !

And then there are all the interactive objects in the .rit & .tit files which need to be recoded also, followed by all the signaling, etc !

I don't think that there is any money to be made in doing that for either KUJU or EA, assisting with converting MSTS routes ! I think their aim is to sell KRS routes ! ;-)

O t t o

[Hack]

>They apparently use a more innovative method of laying tracks, similar to the one used by TRAINZ

How can this be innovative if it's similar to Trainz?

>but with prototypical looking and functioning switches, we have yet to see samples of

Now you lost me completely. How can they be "prototypically looking" if no one's even seen them yet? Do you even read what you're writing before hitting the "post message" button?

>not forgetting having to convert DYN tracks too. There also UK-Finescale and other non MSTS default tracks to be considered.

Dynamic tracks would simply be a virtual path, and not a physical model. Other track components only need to be re-created by the author. However, I'm not sure what you're getting at.

>Looking into a route's Tracks Database and local Tsection.dat I can not imagine how it's contents can be translated into
>another system of completely different design and at the same time tell the equivalent of World files in a KRS route which
>KRS objects that data relates to !

It's just data, Otto. Read the X, Y, Z value from one database, and then translate that information into a readable format by KRS.

>And then there are all the interactive objects in the .rit & .tit files which need to be recoded also, followed by
>all the signaling, etc !

IMHO, the same as the track DB, but stuff like signals would no doubt have to be reset by the route creator. Kuju would probably have a better way of setting up and scripting the signals anyway, so why even bother considering a conversion for those objects? Time will tell, however.

>I don't think that there is any money to be made in doing that for either KUJU or EA, assisting with converting MSTS routes !

Perhaps, but it has little to do with Money, Otto, more than it has to do with out-of-date or incorrect data to begin with. If the route's inaccurate, why convert in the first place. Do you not agree it would be better to start over at that point?

Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com

[link:www.3dtrains.com/products/index.shtml|http://www.3dtrains.com/images/pro_funit_atsfmain.jpg]

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[Hack]

>Yes, if you understand the data structure that is.

Who better than the folks who designed MSTS? ;)

Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com

[link:www.3dtrains.com/products/index.shtml|http://www.3dtrains.com/images/pro_funit_atsfmain.jpg]

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[oakpalms]

Hey Marc,

Good to read your comments. It does look as though there may still be a possibility of converting MSTS routes if I am reading you correctly. It would be a shame to loose all of that time that you and others have devoted to building an MSTS route. I can imagine the heartache of having worked on an MSTS route for over a year and then on the day you release it along comes KRS and suddenly everything you have done sort of goes up in smoke since many will focus on it. I could see that really killing a lot interest in train simulators all together.
Even with all the talk of needing newer computers and Microsoft's newest operating system, I think KRS will most likely run very well on the higher end systems that many MSTS users have now. I think Kuju realizes that backward usability will mean more money for them. Besides that, it looks like they will probably released KRS prior to the new opsys coming out anyway.

Bob

[Hack]

>Good to read your comments. It does look as though there may still be a possibility of converting MSTS routes if I am
>reading you correctly.

Hi Bob,

My argument is that the process is an easy one, not that it should be done. On the surface, backwards compatibility or converting might seem like a good idea to some - or at the very least, saving you countless hours of work already spent in MSTS-RE, but why would you want to?

Consider any route (payware or freeware) available anywhere in the world. Each of these routes have one thing in common - that they each have the limitations and errors inherent in MSTS built into them. Alignment accuracy aside, why would you want to convert/translate something that contains errors to a new format? Wouldn't those same errors also convert? Assuming this to be true, you would then spend more time IMHO fixing what's broke in the converted route, than if you had started from scratch and error-free to begin with (assuming the new sim contains less errors than our beloved MSTS).

Now take a simple model - say a small brick building with a square ACE image attached. Assuming that KRS truly uses a up-to-date graphics engine, then that graphics engine should be able to use separate bump and environment maps, as well as having the ability to use rectangular textures (MSTS is limited to square textures). Even if you stuck with the old square ones, you may still wish to create bump and environment maps for the converted building to bring it "up to date", so it's reasonable to assume you'll be spending some time creating the necessary bump/environment maps, and then applying these features to your model. Else, the converted object will look just that - like a converted object, and not one created with KRS in mind. It would be like running a program designed for Windows 3.1 on Windows XP. The program might still work fine, but will still look like it was designed for 3.1.

For these reasons, I'm not a big fan of converting. Less worries and fewer headaches by starting again, IMHO.

>I can imagine the heartache of having worked on an MSTS route for over a year and then on the day you release it along
>comes KRS and suddenly everything you have done sort of goes up in smoke since many will focus on it. I could see that really killing a
>lot interest in train simulators all together.

I understand where you're coming from, Bob, but I tend to look at it optimistically. For me, the time spent working on a route is also time spent learning about that route. And if Kuju's new tools are an improvement over the exiting ones in MSTS, then hopefully they'll also be faster and easier to use. If true, then I should therefore be able to lay track, objects, etc. more quickly and accurately than I did in MSTS. Like I said, I'm not a big fan of converting. I may not like the thought of having to start over, but I know that in the end the results will be better. One can hope. :)

Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com

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[muskokaandtahoe]

> Looking into a route's Tracks Database and local Tsection.dat I can not imagine how it's contents can be translated into another
> system of completely different design and at the same time tell the equivalent of World files in a KRS route which KRS objects
> that data relates to !

Otto, it's just a bunch of cad data. Numbers. No magic secrets anywhere. If Kujo was interested, they could write up a syntax for scripting, upgrade the editor to allow batch inputs, and allow it to happen. And if they're not interested, they won't do any of that, and that'll be the end of that.


[b]Dave Nelson
SLW Route Design: The Cal-P, 1950.[b]
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y51/muskokaandtahoe/Avatars/Dancing_Genma.gif
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y51/muskokaandtahoe/Avatars/4ad3d633.jpg

[muskokaandtahoe]

> And if Kuju's new tools are an improvement over the exiting ones in MSTS, then hopefully they'll also be faster and easier to use.
> If true, then I should therefore be able to lay track, objects, etc. more quickly and accurately than I did in MSTS. Like I said,
> I'm not a big fan of converting. I may not like the thought of having to start over, but I know that in the end the results
> will be better. One can hope.

Marc, be sure to update these thoughts after you release some routes and then when KRS comes out let us all know how your opinion has changed. :D


[b]Dave Nelson
SLW Route Design: The Cal-P, 1950.[b]
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y51/muskokaandtahoe/Avatars/Dancing_Genma.gif
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y51/muskokaandtahoe/Avatars/4ad3d633.jpg

[rocky]

I suspect there would be good demand and good money to me made from a suite of conversion programs. I would certainly pay say $30 for such a program to convert my own and other routes even if I then had to go along correcting and adding missing info.

A lot simpler than spending another 1500 hours rewriting.

What might happen though is Kuju provides an executable along with the route. If you want to develop a route its $500 for the tools.

Just speculation but.....

[Hack]

>let us all know how your opinion has changed.

Probably not much, as I understand the issues built into current MSTS routes and the short cuts I took in order to create my own. However, if lightning strikes twice and the KRS editors contain the same basic flaws as the current MSTS-RE, then it's a bust and I'll probably be one of those wishing for a converter. My guess would be, more likely than not, that the new editors will have better functionality and allow for better fidelity in routes. Oranges to orange juice is fine, but water into wine might not work out as planned. As I said before, time will tell. :)

Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com

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[Hack]

>What might happen though is Kuju provides an executable along with the route. If you want to develop a route its $500 for the tools.
>
>Just speculation but.....

SDK's are already common for many programs, and there's already a nasty rumor among developers that Kuju wishes to charge a £1200 fee before a payware developer could announce or release a route. Kuju then receives a percentage of sales once the number of product sold surpassed 1000 or so units. If true, then this fee, along with licensing demands already in place by the RR's, would drive more than a few of the current developers away, leaving customers waiting a long time for new addons. While this may not promote an atmosphere of new payware developers, it may not affect freeware at all - unless of course the means in which to create for KRS are out of reach (financially speaking) to the average Joe. Kuju have yet to comment directly on the matter, however.

A good discussion was going on over at UKTS, but several folks kept going off-topic, and finally the thread was locked:

http://forums.uktrainsim.com/viewtopic.php?t=55065

Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com

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[sstyrnol]

Quoting Sabrina:

Hello all,

Sorry to disappoint the conspiracy theorists, but.....

the reason we haven't posted anything to this thread is that we haven't finalised our plans yet. As an 'official' Kuju voice, I only like to post factual information on the forums - and in this instance I don't have many facts to share! Here's what I can say....

We know that Rail Simulator is going to be community based. Our aim is to support all the community, both freeware and payware and we are looking for the best ways to do that. We are in discussions with some of the commercial Add On providers, and are taking their input into consideration. We are also reading the forums to understand your views.

Two further comments
- we can confirm that there will not be any Kuju controlled centralised repository of downloadable content.
- we are looking at ways of helping to ensure that commercially produced add-ons are of a high quality.

As soon as we have finalised our plans we will let you know the details - probably through a press release.

So my suggestion is: As long as we don't know for sure, we shouldnt further promote unsupported rumours. Besides it wouldn't be in the interest of Kuju to effectively kill of payware developers as they add a considerable incentive getting the sim by providing high-quality addons.

[Hack]

>Our aim is to support all the community, both freeware and payware and we are looking for the best ways to do that.

Apart from preventing reverse engineering (and the like), a general unrestricted EULA would go a long way in convincing me.

Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com

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[rgarber]

I've been aware of those rumors and those rumors came from people who used to be flag wavers for Kuju and were also on the inside. So that letter dispels nothing because while it address two rumors and denies them, it doesn't speak at all to the rumors Marc are addressing. In my mind that suggests to me that the rumors while they may not be 100% true, that the content of the rumors are under consideration.

The problem with a letter like the above is it ignores the history of the community. We've seen letters and spokespeople like this before. Lots of corporate sounding talk when issues like Marc have raised that have implications of the sort where we end up using phrases like "______ hit the fan". And in our brief 5 year history usually when the corporate dodge is used, truth is in the rumor somewhere.

I read posts, I and I get a lot of email where I would suggest that this community is tired of three things:

1) Impending release talk of the next latest greatest "whatever." New sims especially.

2) Corporate sounding talk. Everyone seems to go corporate when they don't want to answer questions they know the community won't like.

3) Strings attached. This virtual railroad hobby always has a "gotcha", whether its the programs or the people making things for the program always but lots of show stopping gotchas.

When tmts was around there was alot of excitement showing up in the posting and in my own emails. Not from me, from customers just talking shop. I have yet to see one email, and I get alot, that they even mention this one. In my opinion people will be won over to purchase this new sim when they feel that"

1) They are included as part of the target audience. You get the sense the NA is just being included as an after thought. Pertinent to us in this context is the rumor Marc raised which suggests it will be nearly impossible to do business with this sim to do NA content. So it's up to you freeware guys; congratulations.

2) Understand that this market in particular has been victimized, if I can borrow that word, in the past with plenty of corporate sounding explainations. The expression "it's only a game" is applicable here. If a company wants to talk like the companies of the past did, it's only reasonable people here, given the circumstances, will see the new company as more of the same.

Anyway, that's my take as a fairly non-interested person regarding this new sim. As a developer, I have to look way down the road and the rumors Marc raised has every payware person I know of thinking it's over before it gets started. And my gut instinct contrary to what the letter says, is Kuju couldn't care less.

Rich

[SurvivorSean]

Rich you may be right, and a gut feeling I have says the same. For the record I've never sold anything and/or built any add on software for MSTS. My contributions are limited to a few activities, multi-player, and a trying to organize groups and concepts. The reason I haven't gone as far as I can is simply the tools are not there, or worth the frustration to waste my time. But I do respect what you guys are going through none the less. Deep inside if I spend a huge amount of time on something that is prototypically sound I too would want to make a little money from it.

Still none the less there is an optimistic side that is saying OK this thing might be easy enough for me to get what i want out of it with not as much work, frustration, for the price of admission alone. I'm hoping the tools are going to be more user friendly, and bug free so that I simply have something to do. Hopefuly it will be simple enough to create the basics, and open ended enough to allow for more complex scenery and playability. Then at least there is room out there for people to say hey I'd like to pay for that.

The probelm I see (this goes way beyond MSTS, but in society) is that people want to do it themselves to save a buck. While corporations also want to do it themselves to save a buck too. Automation is wonderful but it takes away the need for talented people to work. I wish my skills were needed out there, but they simply are not. In retrospect with all this automation we should be working 2 days a week, but instead not only are we working full time, but you better have a 2nd income full time or your doomed.

But back on topic people would be very wise to wait and see what KRS performs as a program before buying it. To some degree this is going to happen because people are not as hungry. But there are those who have the $, and are willing to fork it out uncontested and I guess that is their right. My gut believes that is the target of Kuju, and not the people who want to contribute either for free, or a fair price. For now I'll just wait to see where the chips fall, while I continue to try with my efforts to get something out of what we have as best I can.

Thanks

Sean

[oakpalms]

Sean,
I may be missing something, but I have not seen anything that has been indicated by Kuju that they would be cutting add-on payware out of the playing field. I think they know that any add-on, whether it be payware or freeware, actually becomes like free advertisement for someone to purchase KRS. I read comments at TS where people bought MSTS once Cajon Pass became a reality. Since add-on payware depends upon having an Internet webpage, that simply provides more chances that someone will find something about the main program when using a search engine. This allows Kuju to have a few webpages or maybe even just one.

I would suggest that all the forums have numerous rumors that both create interest and at the same time create distrust.
In my profession, it is suggested that rumors are destructive of others as well as self. If everyone would take that approach then maybe we would not be bothered with them. I think that Kuju has been very open concerning their product even when compared with TMTS. I submit that TMTS may have caused Kuju to overlook NA thinking that TMTS had it sewed up. It was not until TMTS announced they were suspending TMTS that Kuju made a move toward the NA market. For that, we should be very thankful.

Bob

[rgarber]

Bob,

You must've missed Marc Nelson's post. Whatever 1200 converted to American dollars is (someone told me about $2000) that's way too much money to pay out to just release a route. And developers, at least on this side of the pond are not reacting well to the review thing either. I'm not going to create a route and then leave it up to a panel in the end who may come back and tell me it's not good enough. I'm not jumping the gun or presuming these rumors to be true except nobody at Kuju is denying these rumors either. This is why, at least what I'm saying is there aren't too many people including payware vendors which are excited for KRS. Now you presumed in your post that they wouldn't do this. Check out the first person game shooters which are doing very well and that's exactly what they do. You cannot create add-ons or mods for first person shooters and sell them. Hey, it's working for them and maybe Kuju feels that strategy will work for them too. Don't really know but like I said, these rumors have been out for months and while Kuju has been able to deny those other two rumors they've never denied the payware issue ones. It's their program and they're gonna distribute it with whatever rules they want.

I also disagree with the NA content issue you raised. Their early statements said it was their intent to only market to the European area for the largest markets came from Europe and not here. Even still the packaging as is stands now is said to not include any NA content. Well, look at it this way. Most of my sales come from people who are not participants of this forum. Hence if KRS is sold in stores the general audience for KRS won't have a clue that NA content is available. And with that most of them probably won't pick up a box targeted for a European audience. So how do they find out about us? They might over time but I get the feeling it's not going to be situation too conducive to payware. Not complaining at all just stating how I and some of us who talked about this see this all shaping up.

Anybody looking to hire a sax playing ornery route building musician? :-)


Rich

[landnrailroader]

With TRAINZ-2006 available at Circuit City for $19.95+ shipping, I decided to take a look at it. I have -2004, but it did not remain on my hard-drives very long.

I regret the loss of TMTS because I feel that would have been the best North American simulator. However with PI Engr. pushing to do commercial work, I have enough friends on the inside of NS and CSX to believe that those companies will attach a string to any commercial contract they make with PI to prevent hobby versions being produced.

That said, we may eventually find that Kuju is the best option we have other than to keep piddling along on MSTS. I have a Athlon processor, 64bit, 1.8G, and the highest end available Nvidia board as of last October, so it runs MSTS fine. AURANS had the best graphic engine I have seen in -2004 and I hope that is improved in -2006. TMTS had planned to sell and support a content editor seperately, and I would suspect that KUJU or any future developers will follow that model. If the prices are right, it should not matter. As far as I know, FS does not any built in content creation but 3rd parties have done well with it.

I would like a conversion method for converting TSM material to 3DS so that it could be exported from that to whatever new simulator uses that product. Something to convert .ace files to the native format of the new simulator as well. Laying track etc. is the easiest part of the creation of a new route so it does not bother me if I have to do that manually.

Terrain developing tools - absolutely a show stopper as far as I am concerned if you cannot use DEMEX, UsaPhotomaps, and the like to create terrain and map paths in whatever simulator comes out. Evidently Mr. Vone used hand sculpting to create the Albula-II and I still marvel at the complexity of the terrain in that sim, really wonderful stuff, but what a price to pay to get it - he has a lot more skill and patience than I.

Jerry H. Sullivan a.k.a. landnrailroder
Working on the Hook & Eye Sub. of CSX (formerly)

[sinclair97]

I find it difficult to believe that "Masterbrains" like Michael Vone, Mike Simpson, and--of course--Paul Guasden won't find a way of converting MSTS stuff (I ain't doin those bloody trees again!--to Kuju's file system.

Mike http://forums.flightsim.com/vbts/up1/108857.gif

[MRRextreme]

<<AURANS had the best graphic engine I have seen in -2004 >>

?

[SurvivorSean]

Gut feelings don't mean rumor of fact, simply gut feelings based on experience and instinct. I'm willing to wait and see where the chips fall, and then I'm sure we'll all have something to bitch and moan at :) How much of the content we do this depends on what is delivered. There will always be room for improvement, and some simply won't buy the software if it doesn't suit their interest.

Thanks

Sean