Steam, Steam, Steam

[Traindude]

After much study of MSTS steamers vs. real steamers, I've realized Kuju had ignored many aspects of steam operation. Here's my ultimate KRS Steam Wishlist:

-Wood and oil firing

-Mechanical stokers (with stoker engine AND jet controls)

-player-shakable grates (MSTS seems to "shake the grates" automatically as loco is being worked)

-operating pyrometer (measures temperature of steam in superheater loco's)

-Operating ashpan flusher (extinguishes hot coals and removes debris from wings of ashpan)

-More complete loco water system (MSTS only relies on sight glasses and injectors, real steamers also use gauge cocks and feedwater heaters)

-operating blow-down valves (either 2 manual or 1 manual and 1 auto)

-Operating Smoke Consumer

-Operating Power Reverser

-More realistic Steam FX

-Animated reversing gear on valve gear in sync to reverser setting

-Operating tender or trailing truck booster engines

-Compound expansion physics (Mallet, Cross-compound and Vauclain)

Here's a link for where I got my info:

<http://railarchive.net/firing/index.html>

[Jonatan]

Aye, all this would greatly dramatize and boost the difficulty of running steam...

I would like if the KRS peeps took a look at this:
http://forums.flightsim.com/vbts/up1/109178.jpg

This isn't intended for any sim in general as the poly count is at 43,000 polys and rising (!!!) but was just a project to see how realistic and detailed a loco I could make.
But then I thought "Hmmmm.... maybe this could go into KRS?", we shall see once the program is released!

And Otto will say that the ammount of realism depends on how much we're willing to pay for it.
Well, if it turns out to be the most detailed and realistic simulator ever created that can compete with the real thing right down to the last rivet, then I think people wouldn't mind shaking out $1000 if that was the price..

But meh, I'd rather just enjoy running the trains I build. :)

/Jonatan

[ragtimer]

I think a lot of what you ask for is unnecessary for the sim,it would make it horribly overcomplicated.What is needed is a proper algorithm for the performance of a steam engine.There should be provision for oil firing i.e no need to open the firehole door to fire the loco.Change of fuel could be accommodated by having a value for calorific value of the fuel.As I have posted elsewhere,I doubt we will get what is required but it would be nice to be proved wrong!

[Macster]

Well after my now 6 times firing a steam locomotive (CC&C 15, Mt. Rainier Scenic #17, and Mt. Rainier Scenic #91.

Here is a real basic run down from Elbe to Park Jct in the 17.

Note that there will be two seperate versions to this but it is all the same concept since they are both oil fired however there is a slight difference between a rod engine and a Heisler.

When departing from Elbe after after the highball I open up the damper all the way then I tend to wait until the locomotive just starts to move before I open up the oil value enough to get a nice haze going out of the stack, then open up the atomizer to about 15-20psi.

My engineer usually after the first crossing comes up a bit (more power) I "gingerly" tap the oil valve open a bit more. Since I am still a student my head gets a work out looking for hand signals from the engineer, looking at the firebox to make sure I have a nice consistant glow from the fire and looking at the stack.

One thing about being a fireman, especially a new one is NOT to have a clear stack. You have a clear stack for an extended period of time, you might be the next one on the ground learning how to install staybolts in the firebox. Your fine with a slight haze coming out of the stack but is the stack really that important? No, your fire is and that is what you will need to learn first and foremost. Why you ask? What if your running at night and you don't have any means of looking at your stack? Bad day for you :P

Anywho as we come up to the second crossing we tend to get after a bit. With the 17's oil valve it is in need of a bit of adjusting. One notch can be ok while the next notch could block out the sun. Well ok, not that severe of a adjustment but it sure does feel that way. The way you apply more throttle will also very much depend on your engineer. You will encounter some that will say "up" and that will only mean a couple pounds in the cylinders.. won't have to do anything at all... then you have those that say up and you better have your oil valve open a couple notches. It's the same for when your coming down.

As we continue onward it is a pretty constant 0.5% grade from the last highway crossing until Park Jct. A distance at 15mph of about 20-25 minutes. By this point time to add water to the injector. With the 17's injector there is an overflow valve you must open, followed by the flow valve you must open, then you can move the injector to the first notch which will prime it. Pull back easy until it stops moving, close the overflow, and turn the flow valve to about half way and drop your boiler pressure down 5-10 pounds. Some may ask when we pop the locomotive off, well we tend to only pop the engine off before we depart the shops to ensure the safety works, though sometimes we readily can't help it.

As we come up to our final highway grade crossing and again depending on the engineer we at times like to go wide open with the brakes set enough just enough to hold us back... gotta give the customers and passerbyers a good show. The oil valve at this point is wide open and the atomsmasher is closed, whistle blaring, bell dinging it's life away...this all happens in 2 minutes time then your back to normal as we slow down for the Nisqually River bridge and the specular view of Mt. Rainier.

As you monitor your fire, BS with the engineer or any cab riders, watch your boiler pressure and your sight water glass, that is pretty much all you do well of course besides ringing the bell.

No need to worry about coal like the Cumbres & Toltec, very easy, not at all physical.

Can an oil fired locomotive be easily simulated in KRS? Heck yes! There honestly isn't a lot to it besides maintaining a careful eye, ear and mind.

The rest just comes with practice, experience, and common sense.

[Traindude]

Macster, you just reminded me of something I almost forgot:

Regarding Geared Locomotives (like those on MRSR): Kuju should make accommodations for geared steamers like Heislers, Shays, Climaxes and Willamettes. All I can think of at this time is the gear ratios.

BTW: On an interview with MRSR on Tracks Ahead, someone said although most geared steamers had only one gear for speeds up to 25 mph, some loco's (I can't remember if they were Heislers or Climaxes) were built with gear-shifts. A new parameter, perhaps?

Articulated Steamers: I would like to see articulated locomotives "count as one" instead of being split into sections. Same goes for rolling stock and geared steamers with more than 2 trucks.

Compound-Expansion locomotives, regardless whether they are Mallet, Vauclain or cross-compound types, should have TWO steam chest pressure gauges: One for the high-pressure cylinders and the other for the low-pressure cylinders.

Steam Turbines should not be neglected. We programmers should not have to write cylinder parameters if our loco doesn't have any! Electrical parameters should be made for Steam-Turbine-Electrics.

[Turbo Bill]

I would like to to see the automatic fireman work as a real fireman would. I'm an engineer, i don't care how the steam is produced or whether the stoker is going ot not or any of that. I ran engines for a living and I focus on properly running the engine. What i would not mind seeing is a locomotive that has an engineer OR firemans's position that the player can play. In the RW you can't run both and expect to do it well. If you could there would never have been two guys in the cab doing the work. So I say make the sim with the option of being the engineer or the fireman or both if wanted. But make sure the Automatic Fireman can keep the steam pressure up following RW charecteristics. If the engineer is working the steam too hard and the fireman is going beyond RW parameters for what would have really been in his abilities with that model of steamer, then the engineer should get a warning or run out of steam and thus change his operating methods. This would add to the realism as asking for all this stuff and doing both jobs of engineer (running) and fireman (supporting the engineer) is bogus and not a model of the RW in any stretch of the imagination. Like i said, give the option of either job with the task of providing steam for the AI engineer thus grading the Fireman's ability to provide the engineer with the steam requirements he needs to complete his tasks or the engineer to get the job done with the AI Fireman doing his duties at least as close to RW charecteristics as possible.

What are some things that Otto should have modeled?

Things like building up his firebox for a long tunnel so you don't run out of steam in the middle of it.

Actually keep the steam up when under a good pull at speed.

Proper fuel and water usage parameters.

Audable warnings when the engineer is exceeding the design abilities of the engine to produce the amount of steam the engineer is blatantly mishandling the locomotive is regards to proper steam usage.

I'm more interested in the locomotives operating physics in regards to power, braking, wheelslip characteristics, sound (synchronization with wheel revs), sight and "feel" (slack action) of the engine and it's train. If an engine has a booster, then the control should be there to activate it and have it affect the engines charecteristics, the sounds should be there to reflect the device as well.

[ragtimer]

Yes,well said Bill.As I posted some time ago,this sim does not reward a good fireman who gets the coal in the right place.I do not know about US steam engines but all those I have fired in UK like the coal in the right place and in the right quantity.Good skill=far less effort!The problem is,are Kuju reading and or taking in what we are saying here?By the lack of response from them I doubt it.

[Traindude]

Getting coal in the right place, eh? That gives me an idea, but will it pay off?

Both the Rail Archive on-line firing manual and Raildriver's Firing the Steam Locomotive (which unusually seem to copy each other word-for-word) states that various fire conditions do affect locomotive performance. Banks/high spots, holes/light spots, plugged arches and clinkers in the fire bed all create an unbalanced draft and this could be simulated in KRS.

BTW: The pyrometer on a superheater locomotive is vital for detection of a bad fire condition or priming/foaming.

600-750° F=Normal Setting

Gradual Drop in reading=bad fire condition

Rapid drop or fluctuating reading=priming or foaming

High reading=Locomotive working hard

[Bill Hobbs]

In the days of steam, most railroads had their own materials for training engineers and firemen. You can somtimes find these manuals at RR book sellers. I am lucky to have a copy of "The Traveling Engineers' Examination Book" from 1944 I found many many years ago for the princely sum of $2.25 (the original was only $1.50). It proved very useful over the years. I now have copies of other such books, including a Turn-of-Century manual with exam questions.
There are a couple of currently available books. One used to be available on the home page for these forums. The following URL has not only such a book, but is a very good source of technical books on steam:
http://www.camdenmin.co.uk/SteamTech.htm

As far as being an engineer on a steam loco goes, I have to disagree with Turbobill. Every manual I have ever seen (including the one referenced by TrainDude) states something to the effect that "the engineer and fireman must work in complete harmony". When you get in a real loco, it doesn't take long to find out why this is important. A bad engineer can run a train out of steam in no time at all as can a lousy fireman. They must coordinate their actions and I don't see how an auto fireman can be programmed proerly to anticipate a change in road conditions. One reason to have men progress from being firemen to engineers is not just to give them time to learn the rule book, but to hopefully teach them how to work with the fireman when they become engineer.
I have always been both engineer and fireman when playing with TrainSim. Since there is no heavy lifting involved, it isn't that difficult to do. I hope to continue doing that with the new TrainSim.

[Traindude]

Maybe we could have a multiplayer setup in which player 1 is the engineer while player 2 is fireman.

[Traindude]

I have modified the existing MSTS key functions to what may be KRS's scheme. Hope these controls satisfy you.

Oil-Fired Steamers

R-Increase Oil Flow
SHIFT-R-Decrease Oil Flow
Q-Increase Atomizer
SHIFT-Q-Decrease Atomizer

Mechanical Stokers

R-Increase Stoker Engine Speed (Hold CTRL to hand-fire)
SHIFT-R-Decrease Stoker Engine Speed (Hold CTRL to hand-fire)
Q-Stoker Engine Reverser Forward Position
SHIFT-Q-Stoker Engine Reverser Reverse Position
NUM PAD 7-Increase Left-Rear Distributor Jet
SHIFT-NUM PAD 7-Decrease Left-Rear Distributor Jet
NUM PAD 8-Increase Left-Front Distributor Jet
SHIFT-NUM PAD 8-Decrease Left-Front Distributor Jet
NUM PAD 9-Increase Center/Fine-Coal Distributor Jet
SHIFT-NUM PAD 9-Decrease Center/Fine Coal Distributor Jet
NUM PAD 6-Increase Right-Front Distributor Jet
SHIFT-NUM PAD 6-Decrease Right-Front Distributor Jet
NUM PAD 3-Increase Right-Rear Distributor Jet
SHIFT-NUM PAD 3-Decrease Right-Rear Distributor Jet
NUM PAD 0-Increase Jet Manifold
SHIFT-NUM PAD 0-Decrease Jet Manifold
Z-Booster Valve On/Off

Grate Shaking

NUM PAD 1 (Tap Repeatedly)-Shake Left Rear Grate
NUM PAD 2 (Tap Repeatedly)-Shake Right Rear Grate
NUM PAD 4 (Tap Repeatedly)-Shake Left Front Grate
NUM PAD 5 (Tap Repeatedly)-Shake Right Front Grate

Water System

\(BACKSLASH)-Try Gauge Cocks
On locomotive equipped with feedwater heater, I & K control (hot) feedwater pump.
P-Increase Cold-Water Pump (Worthington only)
SHIFT-P-Decrease Cold-Water Pump (Worthington only)
/(FORWARD SLASH) (Hold Down)-(Manual) Blow-Down

OTHER

V (Tap Once)-Flush Ash Pan
E-Smoke Consumer On/Off
,(COMMA)-Increase Booster Engine Speed
.(PERIOD)-Decrease Booster Engine Speed

I hope these are to your liking!

[Bill Hobbs]

Too much realism. I'd never remember all of these!

[Whitepass]

As a content maker of an old steamer a lot of the things you have listed are vary hard to imposable to find. All so you should be able to not have every thing and still have the loco work. I am working on the B&O York built 1831 and a lot of things are not on this loco like brakes, bell, blowers, lights, gages and so on.

[SPS 700]

I would like to see a sim which would let you use two tenders and increase the water as soon as it is coupled onto as well as have controls for the steam pumps between tenders and such.

[Traindude]

Thank you, SPS 700 for that...another to add to the list.

Bill...

Maybe we could do without stoker jet controls and the need to check the gauge cocks every couple of minutes. MSTS ignores the distribution of coal so maybe we could do without jets. Grate shaking and ashpan flushing I am unsure whether to keep or do away with. Anyways--I was running out of keys so I relied on the Num Pad.

BTW: After intensive study of Kalmbach Publishing's The Model Railroader's Guide to Locomotive Servicing Terminals, I thought of a new parameter for KRS. At the end of a run, a wood or coal-fired steamer would return to the terminal and have its ashes dumped in the ash pit. If KRS has interactive coaling towers and water columns, an interactive ash pit should be included. All you have to do is position your engine's ashpan over the pit, hit the T key once and viola! Also, Oil columns for oil-burners and woodsheds for woodburners.

And WhitePass, I refer to late-era (think 1915 to end of steam) steamers when I refer to these parameters.

[Bill Hobbs]

Ash build-up would be relatively easy to model mathematically. You would, of course, have to specify the ash content of the coal to start with, though. Then as the volume increased, it would decrease the flow area available for draft.
Now for the more complicated part. If the available air flow drops below that needed to efficiently combust the fuel, the heat release would drop dramatically as more CO than CO2 would be produced. To add to the complication, the depth of the firebed and the size of the coal lumps must be taken into account for its impact on air flow and oxygen requirements. Now a good flow of secondary air (air entering above the fire) could cause the CO to combust to CO2 above the firebed as was sought in the GPCS boilers (e.g. the Red Devil).