KRS Scenes

[OTTODAD]

Thought you might like to see these ! ;-)

http://forums.uktrainsim.com/viewtopic.php?p=701576&sid=3d6a0589603c5e14c2ee6f15d5853345#701576

Nice rails, but no close-ups of switches yet !

Keep adding more more if you see new ones !

O t t o

[jfinney]

Otto i think your track textures look better than that. Scenery is quite a improvement and it's nice to see flanges on the wheels!
john
http://forums.flightsim.com/vbts/up1/87778.gif
Gone but not forgotten!

[OTTODAD]

The rails and their profile look great, complete with fish-plates and there are not many on seamless welded tracks these are supposed to be, but seem to float slightly above the ties, the fastener clips not as good and detailed as those in the TZ and BVE pictures and in the modern track versions of Scalerail !

I suppose it's early days yet, KUJU soaking up feedback ! ;-)

O t t o

[rgarber]

Are you sure those are pictures from KRS? Looks like Trainz.

Rich G

[SurvivorSean]

Don't know for sure but the power is KRS models as far as I know.

Thanks

Sean

[jay611]

looks great! Im looking forward to KRS's release.

Cheers,

Jason Underwood
Newport News, Virginia
CSX Peninsula Sub MP.16
WMRY303@hotmail.com

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y220/jay611/BCR_400_R.gif

[OTTODAD]

Did you see this ?

There are also no overhead wires like in all the other scenes published so far, unless TRAINZ also has none and uses rails of that quality !

I have seen this gantry in other KRS screenshots.

Just found some more: http://www.3dgamers.com/screenshots/games/railsim/

O t t o

http://forums.flightsim.com/vbts/up1/110319.jpg

[Bill Hobbs]

The similiarity to Trainz seems to me to be due to the lighting in these scenes. The train equipment shows directional lighting, but the scenery does not.
A second oddity is the sky which looks a little like a painted backdrop. Obviously there is still work to be done. The textures of the scenery (buildings, trees, and shrubs, etc) look very detailed.

[muskokaandtahoe]

Nice bushes. That track ballast makes my stomach roll over tho. Whadda figure, a 60 degree angle on that slope? Looks toy-like.

[b]Dave Nelson
SLW Route Design: The Cal-P, 1950.[b]
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y51/muskokaandtahoe/Avatars/Dancing_Genma.gif
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y51/muskokaandtahoe/Avatars/4ad3d633.jpg

[jay611]

Yeah now that I look at it; it is a bit steep. looks like freshly ballested track. I'd drop it down a bit lower and give it a 20-45 degree slope.

Cheers,

Jason Underwood
Newport News, Virginia
CSX Peninsula Sub MP.16
WMRY303@hotmail.com

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y220/jay611/BCR_400_R.gif

[MRRextreme]

I can not find fault with the detail in the shots.

BUT what still bothers me is the environmental lighting looks very Trainz-like. It is almost a step backwards. Realistic lighting in MSTS is what separated MSTS from Trainz.

Realistic lighting is critical!

[keber]

Are you sure about "realistic" lightning in MSTS? ;-)

[ozinoz]

Hi guys...

Have a look at http://www.virtual-rail.co.uk/krs.htm
and the latest KUJU KRS newsletter it details the new dynamic weather which will obviously have a HUGE impact on strength and condition of lighting...

Cheers

[keber]

Almost in every screenshot we can see usage of HDR lightning. Already this will make _huge_ difference from Trainz.

Game is far far from finished. If this would be final screens, then game could be already released next week. But it won't be.

[mrmgp]

I'm seeing KRS as a diamond in the rough, much like MSTS was. Hopefully KRS will be as susceptible to tweaking like MSTS turned out to be so that we can push the sim to greater limits of realism.

[Bill Hobbs]

Gee, I found this site very informative. I dn't know why more hasn't been made about it. The information there should answer a lot of questions about what is going on att Kuju. Thanks for the reference!

[OTTODAD]

Thanks for reminding me to check this web site more often ! ;-)

These newsletters say much more than those on the RAILDRIVER web site, probably because they are sent to forum owners and interested third-party add-on creators who are expected to respond with their requirements feedback and other helpful comments ?

This is getting close to what I have asked for, which is being able to change the Season, Weather and Time while actually driving a train, very much like can be done in the MS Flight Simulator ! ;-)

Easier than having to do a lot of work programming an activity with varying environments ! :7

Still would like to see a close-up of switches with animated blades ! ;-)

O t t o

[rgarber]

Still looks like Trainz.

From a thread over at uktrainsim, there is a link that points to a racing game R4:

http://hudsonkerr.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26

Now those are graphics relevant to train SIMMING... what we're seeing from these KRS shots is relevant to train gaming.

I seriously doubt one graphic engine can do both.

Here's an Otto impersonation: "You listening Kuju?" ;-)

Rich G

[Hack]

>This is getting close to what I have asked for

Kuju aren't creating KRS for you alone, Otto. Try wording your posts so you don't come across as a complete nincompoop.

Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com

[link:www.3dtrains.com/products/index.shtml|http://www.3dtrains.com/images/pro_funit_atsfmain.jpg]

Pro Series v4.0 SuperPacks

[rgarber]

Now don't get me wrong folks, I'm just reacting to the difference in the KRS video and these KRS screenshots. The last 5 years that I remember is that people here (here OTTO, not over in Europe, here! *I'm pointing to the ground*) is we embraced MSTS1 and partially at that for its environmental look.

And since Kuju plopped this forum here, here Otto - this isn't Uktrainsim, and they asked for OUR opinions, this is what I say. Not just because of physics, not just because of the open architecture, and not just because MSTS was first, but because there's a realistic appearance in the environment that MSTS offered that Trainz didn't is one reason MSTS has been more successful -- here.

If we didn't embrace the Trainz look then, why should we now? Sure, I think it's great to include some atmosphere for character, but if every route is going to have this first person shooter look to it, then I think you have a game in the making, not a sim.

Rich G

[wacampbell]

Amen, Trainz 'atmosphere' comes from a naive shader algorithm that lacks support for directional lighting. Without the sunlit surfaces, Trainz always looks cloudy and dull. I hope we aren't going up that road with Kuju's new sim.

[sinclair97]

Hmmmm....we'll hear the rain then...but will wehear the thunder cracks, or will they be fake?

Mike http://forums.flightsim.com/vbts/up1/110324.gif

[Hack]

>Hmmmm....we'll hear the rain then...but will wehear the thunder cracks, or will they be fake?

Mike - If keyed sounds are the norm, let's hope they can be delayed or use a doppler effect. That would be neat. :)

Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com

[link:www.3dtrains.com/products/index.shtml|http://www.3dtrains.com/images/pro_funit_atsfmain.jpg]

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[OTTODAD]

I don't think anybody else has a problem understanding what I am saying, Marc !

I am just one of thousands who have asked KUJU for specific improvements and additional functions I would like to see in KRS, changing the weather while driving in an activity being one I asked for in the UK-Trainsim forum. Another item in my Wish List I gave them years ago and reminded of again when KRS was announced is also being accommodated, which is not to abort an activity if a player runs through a RED !

Perhaps you and some others HERE might get what they want from KRS depending on how it is put ?

O t t o

P.S.: And one other thing, this is a forum which has members from as far as Australia, Korea, Japan, China, South Africa, Argentina, Brazil, Europe, Canada and the USA, and some other countries, so HERE embraces them all and what they would like to see in a train simulator !

[rgarber]

You're the one who keeps bringing up that thread with over 28 billion views over at uktrainsim as this in your mind seems to carry alot of weight (not to mention how many of those posts are dogging your butt). I don't think it matters a wit here... as in HERE!

[muskokaandtahoe]

> Nice bushes.

Hmmmm. Now that I've looked I must say the trees and shrubs do look a lot like Speedtree products.

All I gotta say is if that's the case AND the buying public has an expectation of MSTS-like library contributions, fuggghhetttaboutittttt. 1 Speedtree license costs $8500.

[b]Dave Nelson
SLW Route Design: The Cal-P, 1950.[b]
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y51/muskokaandtahoe/Avatars/Dancing_Genma.gif
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y51/muskokaandtahoe/Avatars/4ad3d633.jpg

[Hack]

>I don't think anybody else has a problem understanding what I am saying, Marc !

Your post was crystal clear to me, Otto. I simply made an observation on how you word your posts, and how your words might be interpreted on this side of the pond. I'm certain that a good number here (and elsewhere) see you as an arrogant boob, not to mention patting yourself on the back at every opportunity:

http://www.otto-wipfel.co.uk/appreciation

I even noted one of the messages had the "flack" info removed, no doubt carefully edited to suit your own ego. Sheesh.

Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com

[link:www.3dtrains.com/products/index.shtml|http://www.3dtrains.com/images/pro_funit_atsfmain.jpg]

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[TrainFanAmtrak]

I think favorite KRS loco is the Intercity 125 HST. I cant wait for the game in 2007!

[sstyrnol]

Seems like the link doesn't work anymore... Maybe you triggered a reaction, Marc... :+

[keber]

>Still looks like Trainz.
>
>From a thread over at uktrainsim, there is a link that points
>to a racing game R4:
>
>http://hudsonkerr.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26
>
>Now those are graphics relevant to train SIMMING... what we're
>seeing from these KRS shots is relevant to train gaming.

There is one problem here: on this linka are all superb photorealistic textures. But this racing game is placed on a small place with a limited number of 3D objects of small polycount (see cardboard trees?). I don't say, that train sim should not look this, but imagine how many DVDs would it take, not speaking of a computer, that could handle all this.
Textures used in this game are VERY big (so you need very powerfull graphic card with lots of onboard memory) and be aware that photographed sky in not suitable for big distances and dynamical weather (expected in train sim).

And I very much believe, that textures, seen in early KRS shots, will much differ from final version.

[rgarber]

There is no problem here. The point I was making wasn't that we all go out and by R4 and try and make it into a train sim. Rather, the point I was making is the difference between hazy looking screenshots and those more pertinent to a sim that look more realistic.

Now I would love to spend the rest of this reply debunking the mess of your other assumptions but I got some other things to do. And I appreciate your faith in KRS but I hope you understand that I'll wait til I see those screenshots before I go out and buy Kuju's stock.

[muskokaandtahoe]

> And I very much believe, that textures, seen in early KRS shots, will much differ from final version.

What makes you think so?

[b]Dave Nelson
SLW Route Design: The Cal-P, 1950.[b]
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y51/muskokaandtahoe/Avatars/Dancing_Genma.gif
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y51/muskokaandtahoe/Avatars/4ad3d633.jpg

[Hack]

>There is one problem here: on this linka are all superb photorealistic textures. But this racing game is placed on a
>small place with a limited number of 3D objects of small polycount (see cardboard trees?). I don't say, that train sim
>should not look this, but imagine how many DVDs would it take, not speaking of a computer, that could handle all this.
>Textures used in this game are VERY big (so you need very powerfull graphic card with lots of onboard memory) and be
>aware that photographed sky in not suitable for big distances and dynamical weather (expected in train sim).

Not necessarily so. Perhaps you may be thinking that all the objects in either rFactor or KRS/MSTS/et all need to be loaded at once, but this is not the case. Keep in mind that whether a racing sim, “shoot-em-up”, or even train sim will have a limited (capped) draw distance - either imposed by the software or the user’s system. It just happens to be more noticeable in train sims because we’re moving slower, exposed to more open spaces, and also expecting to see further to the horizon along long stretches of straight track.

Take for instance the skybox used in rFactor. Other than it’s mesh construction and mapping, is similar to that currently in use in MSTS. Out of the box, MSTS used a square-shaped map applied to the sky, but with a bit of fiddling, the same hemispherical texture used in rFactor can be used in MSTS. Because of the hard-coded limitations in MSTS, however, some artifacts will be present, but for the most part the skys between rFactor and the ones I included in the TPII expansion are (pardon the pun) virtually identical.

As a matter of fact, Hudson provided several of the skys in the TPII expansion, while many of the trees you see in Hudson’s rFactor screens were provided by yours truly.

The only real difference between the two sims is that the skybox in rFactor is stationary, while in MSTS (and I suspect KRS) skyboxes are always centered on the user’s view. Other than the size of the initial texture, either method doesn’t impose any significant overhead to the user’s system.

While it’s true the trees in rFactor are flat and/or cruciform shaped, the ISI G-Motor graphics engine used to power rFactor could easily handle the procedural trees that you see in KRS. It’s simply a matter of adding the IDV SpeedTree plugin to the rFactor code; something we may see in the future.

Also note that all objects used in rFactor use a combination of normal and standard bump mapped textures, with shiny objects having an additional environment map applied. While this would lead one to believe that these features add to the overall size of the finished product, the techniques used actually create a smaller package. No longer are you limited to factor-2 square textures. Now your objects can be mapped with more efficient rectangular ones, coupled with additional smaller textures tiled and used for bump and normal mapping. All of this giving a richer, more realistic appearance, but potentially resulting in a smaller overall route/track.

>And I very much believe, that textures, seen in early KRS shots, will much differ from final version.

It's not the textures themselves that concerns me, more so than what I can do with them once in my grubby little paws. :)

Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com

[link:www.3dtrains.com/products/index.shtml|http://www.3dtrains.com/images/pro_funit_atsfmain.jpg]

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[keber]

>> And I very much believe, that textures, seen in early KRS
>shots, will much differ from final version.
>
>What makes you think so?

Because resolution of most of the textures in current screenshots is comparable with at least 4 years old games. Even first renderings of KRS (we can now assume, that they WERE renderings) have much higher resolutions.

Also, there still at least half a year (and I'm certain, that even more) until sim release. Almost impossible, that this screenshots show final look of the sim. Game developers just don't do that.

[dgauci]

>Perhaps you and some others HERE might get what they want from KRS depending on how it is put ?

What seems to be missing from this post is a proper perspective. If Kuju wants to get what they want from US the paying customers, (our money), they also need to listen to US HERE. In order for KRS to succeed Kuju needs US the paying customers, we don’t need them because we have other choices and options if this doesn’t pan out!

[dgauci]

>Also, there still at least half a year (and I'm certain, that even more) until sim release.

Since it is apparently not in beta yet much longer than six months, (probably at least a year.)

[shadowr434]

I don't know,call me names if you wish but I don't see anything worth the hype yet.I really didn't get bowled over by the screen shots.MSTS in a few of the good routes looks a billion times better and that isn't a good thing when they are compared to a 5 yr old product and really don't make you gasp with amazement.

[SurvivorSean]

I'd gladly run a simulator with less than perfect graphics if it operates properly with realistic AI, etc. I know I'm in the minority with that, but eye candy will only last so long as evident MSTS remains idle on my pc, and I'm running FYM with colored squares on a satellite map.

Thanks

Sean

[kujuSabrina]

I would just like to confirm that the vegetation seen in the recent screen shots uses Kuju technology only. We have developed the ability for viewer facing assets within Rail Simulator. As this is part of the core simulation this means you will be able to make similar looking vegetation without incurring costs such as those described above. A more detailed look at our vegetation approach and techniques will be released in the future.

[sstyrnol]

I think that is a very important aspect to know! Thanks for that! :D

[muskokaandtahoe]

Thank you for correcting my assumption, it's good news to hear.

FWIW, if this technology is good -- and for what's been shown it looks like it might be -- you should talk it up a bit more than has been done so far. I'm sure developers everywhere would be keen to hear more.

Some more disclosure on terrain issues would be welcome as well -- what kind of projection is used to get DEM data into the sim? What is the mesh type and what size being used?

[b]Dave Nelson
SLW Route Design: The Cal-P, 1950.[b]
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y51/muskokaandtahoe/Avatars/Dancing_Genma.gif
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y51/muskokaandtahoe/Avatars/4ad3d633.jpg