Unfinished software

[sstyrnol]

Colleagues,

I am going to post this here, as I was just pondering this. First of all, this is not meant to be a "I defend KRS" - Post. It is a fact that relates to all WIP software!

Recently, Microsoft released a demo version of their upcoming newest rendition of their flight simulator merchandise: http://www.microsoft.com/games/flightsimulatorx/

Now, here is what characterizes this demo:

(1) High amount of visual treats that - while looking extremely nice - tend to bog down your system (even if you have a fast one) very quickly the more of them you activate.

(2) Superior physics including head movements and other treats!

(3) High amount of visual anomalies, errors and bugs that have been found by users of the demo. On some computers - not low-end ones - the simulation even completely refused to work.

The last aspect is what got me into this post. I think there are a lot of emotions (fascinating eh?!) involved in the discussions around KRS - both negative and positive! However, what we must not forget: This is a software, still early in its development. As far as I understand it, not even all of its features are complete.

Hence I think it would only be reasonable to provide constructive feedback based on what information, screen shots and videos we get presented. Condemning an unfinished project based on information shown way before its release is in my humble opinion not reasonable.

I think as time continues, we will see many aspects getting remedied in order to please the greedy masses.

Now, this does not only apply to KRS, but also to

- Routes
- Rolling Stock
- Scenery Objects
- ...

Thanks for reading!

[rgarber]

Those are good points Sebastian but they did open a forum asking for feedback. And really, I think this forum participation has been pretty quiet for the most part because most, it seems, would rather not get their hopes up for the letdowns of the past. And I think in that regard too the bulk of negativity, which I think is being misinterpreted here, is based on a tend of developments, not nitpicking per se. Supposedly this time we're to have some input into the development and if that's the case, now's the time to say it and not when it's done. We can say it nicely, we can say it plainly; I agree we don't have to be nasty about it. And we need this kind of sensibility, as you say, on both sides of the aisles. We got participants already suggesting end results will be better, faster, improved over what we have now. But based on nothing more than a feeling, a hunch, a desire. None of which is anything we can take to the bank. Just like you wrote in your statement "I think as time continues, we will see many aspects getting remedied in order to please the greedy masses." How do you know what will happen and how do you know your desires represent our desires? As a developer for msts, I feel I have some idea what alot of us are looking for. I get emails all the time telling me such. The real question though is what makes any of us any more qualified to speak up for the rest of us? Things will stay the same here. Already it's been suggested that Kuju isn't really listening here any more anyway. So if that's the case, why do we even bother? If you ask me, the whole attempt was to look for yes men. Train-sim just isn't that kind of place. I agree with your plea for civility but I have reservations with your plea for passivity. Well written though, you get an A+ for that! :-)

Rich

[sstyrnol]

I never asked for passivity!

I asked people to

a) give reasonable and constructive criticism, especially under the prerequisite that this is a piece of software not even in alpha stage.

b) to sit tight and wait for the good/bad things to come.

There is a whole lee-way between passivity, negativity and some well-mannered constructive criticism.

[rgarber]

Well, to me you are and here's why. First, you didn't name any instances of negativity so I'm to assume that anything that is said which doesn't come out as an endorsement of KRS is construed as negative. And just who are we giving "reasonable and constructive" criticism too? Has there been an instance where they listened? Let's take the graphic debate in the previous thread as an example. Just how much nicer can we say that the pictures are starting to look like Trainz? And what I did was point to a link of pictures from some racing game. And there again, folks from the other aisle who have no connection to KRS come out and say, "it'll get better." Yet, just as its been for the most part, not a peep from the people we're supposed to be giving reasonable and constuctive criticism too.

You wrote: "to sit tight and wait for the good/bad things to come" When there was nothing to see, hardly anything was being said down here. Now we got things to see and make comment on and now you write we should sit back and wait for something else to come. Makes no sense to me.

Maybe a better suggestion in this Sebastian is rather than labeling us all with this well intended post, that we all need to do whatever it is your trying to say, instead why not take issue with those privately you feel are not abiding by this sensible code of conduct. OR explain just what negativity it is your talking about.

Rich

[sstyrnol]

I do see your point and accept it, but as I meant it as a general post it will stay like this. ;)

[ozdriver]

Remember when KUJU first put the black 5 up for all to see
Square buffers and the loco was levitating above the rails
Some praised the loco and some jumped on the faults
Kuju fixed the faults straight away
Even though they might have only been render shots

[dgauci]

>especially under the prerequisite that this is a piece of
>software not even in alpha stage.

I would respectfully disagree that the software is not in an alpha stage yet. Not beta yet, but I would venture alpha as they tweak it internally. If it hasn't reached alpha stage yet this late in the year, I would not expect to see it released anytime soon next year.

I also agree that the graphics are looking very Trainz like which is to say awful! That does not need to be taken as negativity, it can also be taken as constructive criticism that what they have now is not working and needs to be vastly redesigned and changed while they are still coding it before it becomes locked in.

[shadowr434]

Recently a friend on a diferent forum wrote about the loosening of the NDA for FSX so I figured Id let you in on it.



"""OK, parts of the NDA's have been lifted by Microsoft regarding the full beta test team, so here goes.

It looks stunning (much better than the demo) especially the weather / lighting effects. Skinned animation is a huge plus for eye candy fans - no more nasty jointed figures and wonky gear movements

New 206 looks great, but what about the airfile?
Yes it has changed. the 206 can be flown at full realism and if anything is easier to fly than in fs9, a bit tame for the old pro's but a very easy tweak changes all that. Auto's are much better (wonder where they got that idea from?) in terms of procedure and you can be sure that a certain 3rd developer has already improved it further for the more subtle details. Thermals can throw the helis about a bit.

Will my old add-ons work? that depends how complex they are. most "normal" add-ons work out of the box (but you will want the new goodies). Complex stuff that messes with fs internals will need updating

High def. Mesh and autogen is very good, a few minor anomolies (watch out for pyramids outside Shoreham) but much more absorbing.

Framerates/ blurries? I got high frame rates on a mediocre system, similar to fs9 but with far more detail and autogen. Blurries were better and expected to be vastly improved before going to gold.

Can I still make stuff in Gmax for fsX?
Yes but you are going to have a lot of new stuff to learn. seperate internal and external models, new animation techniques and new texture system.

Multiplayer? totally different, find a heli that needs a crew, turn on some nasty weather and and smother yourself in goodness."""

[tdragger]

It's interesting that you call out the FSX demo release in this context. It is the first time MS has ever released a trial demo of one of its sims and I think it took many people by suprise. Many weren't prepared for a demo that wasn't quite finished but others saw the value in getting an early look. Plus, there were some bugs that were found by people using the demo that we did fix in the end. Open communication is a good thing but it takes a while for those involved to sort out how to make it book to their mutual advantage. ;)

[wakeboarder82]

I have to say I am shocked to see the name tdragger on this forum. What brings you here? I'm going to assume that this could only mean 1 thing. You are starting work on MSTS 2. You did say you were moving on to new projects. What? No? Well it was worth a try. Seriously though, I would love to see what you guys could do with a new train sim. I'm sure it would put every other train sim to shame. Can't you pull some strings for us?

[tdragger]

Well, you know what happens after you ship a new version of software--everybody gets a whole lot of free time!