Add On Announcement

[kujuSabrina]

Hi all,

Our latest website article is available at www.railsimulator.com

[cougar]

"One final point - the toolkit we provide to add-on providers and that provide in the box will be exactly the same - it will be the full toolkit that is being used by the team here in the development of our routes"

This is good news.

[TrainFanAmtrak]

Wow that is some great news! I hope there could be a lot commercial add
ons in the near future.

[Bill Hobbs]

I also find this to be good news. It would also indicate that the documentation available for doing ad-ons should be more complete as well. With good documentation, we won't have to spend as much time guessing what is going on in the black box as was necessary with the first TrainSim.

[cbq311]

Actually I think this is not good. Many of the payware folks do this in their spare time or are very low profit margins. With fees to the railroads and now fees to kujo, how many will go with it. This is a blatant ripoff. Greed wins out yet again. Anyone think of another game that charges like this?

[Vince]

Hi Bob,

If I understand you correctly you have an issue for a payware creator provider paying for a toolkit. IOW, the payware creator should get the toolkit for free? Why?
Another blatant ripoff you say. I agree!! A ripoff by a payware creator who wants free tools so he can make payware models that is.

Hi Bob,
Payware providers sure should pay. If you want to charge for created content then you should pay KUJU. KUJU, (btw thats a "U" in KUJU not "o") should have final say on what can be sold to insure quality.
This will prevent blatant ripoff payware junk from being released and KUJU has every right to charge developers who choose to use sell their work.

You say; >>". . .Greed wins out yet again.<< Who's greed? This sounds like sour grapes to me. Something like ; 'I wanna build a house but if I have to buy a hammer and nails then it's a "ripoff".

Myself, I will continue to create free content in the spirit of the trainsim community of sharing any work I create. . .for free!

And I'll add my second to Bill Hobbs for some decent documentation. (and am even willing to pay for a hard copy) ;)

[oakpalms]

Come on Bob, give Kuju a brake. They state they have been in contact with several add-on providers...apparently the add-on providers are not as distraunt as you seem to be. I think the attitude of Kuju is outstanding--freeware builders will get the same tools as the payware builders. That doesn't happen very often.

A guarantee on quality for add-on projects will protect the builder as well as the purchasers of add-on products, and it will keep Kuju out of the middle of disputes. That will also assure us that Kuju is going to have to keep up on future developments. We never did get even good support from Microsoft--they disappeared from the Train-sim world about three months after MSTS hit the market. It appears that Kuju will have to provide future support when add-on developers come up with new uses of the software or come up with fixing inadvertent errors. Quality support in the form of updates will go along way with allaying a lot of fears that MSTS users have.

In any business, prices paid for tools, materials, etc. is deducted right out of the taxes. Sure, the companies will have to put out some money, but they will have the tools available to start immediately making add-ons--apparently even before KRS goes on the public market. This may be Kuju's way of making American material available if it is not in the original package. If that is the case, I think a lot of Americans are going to be ticked off having to buy twice to get American content while the Europeans only have to buy once.

We will have to see the impact that KRS has when it is made public to fully understand how far of an advancement it will be.

Bob Edwards

[cbq311]

I guess I did not make myself clear - Yes, paying for the toolkit is fair, but where does it go from there? The licensing scheme is not that clear.

I talked to a couple of US payware folks and none of them have been approached. In fact one has sent multiple emails and has not heard anything back. And yes, there are few private forums or areas on other ones that the general public cannot access. Sofar nobody has stated that they have heard from kuju. And these are not pikers either.

In any business, prices paid for tools, materials, etc. is deducted right out of the taxes. Sure, the companies will have to put out some money, but they will have the tools available to start immediately making add-ons--apparently even before KRS goes on the public market. This may be Kuju's way of making American material available if it is not in the original package. If that is the case, I think a lot of Americans are going to be ticked off having to buy twice to get American content while the Europeans only have to buy once.

Fine, but a lot of the US guys are little guys who have already shelled out big bucks for 3d programs and other software. What price is kuju going to ask. That is the question and the "news" didn't state. Just a lot of maybe's.

[cbq311]

"Kuju will also provide a third party QA service which will report upon the functionality and quality of the add-on. "

I find this statement troubling. Will they prevent the release of something because a buddy is doing the same thing or they have a better deal with someone else? Or will they rip it for the same reasons?

I think this whole "news" thing still leaves questions in the air. Hopefully they will flesh a lot of the things they have said out.

[muskokaandtahoe]

Vince, the announcement says toolkit is identical to what ships in the box to end consumers. So it's not at all like your example of the fairness of paying for a hammer and nails to build a house... it's more like paying an extra fee when you sell that house because you bought and used their hammer and nails whereas if you just gave away that house after building it there would be no extra fee. Is your mind is that still fair? Might be to some and not to others.

At any rate, it's all much ado about nothing until we learn what the license agreement calls for. Nominal fees are not going to irriate anybody except those who like being irritated. Significant fees are going to drive a lot of payware people into considering whether to even stay in the business, and significant fees up front will drive most payware people out.

Just for yuks... think about these examples: Would you, as a developer, pay Kuju 1% of list for the goods you sold? 5%? 20%? Or how about a one-time fee $100 up front and that's all? Or $25 per model. Or $10,000 up front for each route? Or even $20,000 up front plus some percentage of list? Gets you thinking doesn't it?

Well we can all speculate from now till whenever and say our speculations make Kuju look good, bad, fair, or outrageous. Whatever. We need some facts.

[b]Dave Nelson
SLW Route Design: The Cal-P, 1950.[b]
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y51/muskokaandtahoe/Avatars/Dancing_Genma.gif
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y51/muskokaandtahoe/Avatars/4ad3d633.jpg

[muskokaandtahoe]

> In any business, prices paid for tools, materials, etc. is deducted right out of the taxes.

Deductions are worth only what the marginal rate is (e.g., 25%). Only credits get you dollar for dollar. Are your business taxes different or was it a "slip of jargon"?

[b]Dave Nelson
SLW Route Design: The Cal-P, 1950.[b]
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y51/muskokaandtahoe/Avatars/Dancing_Genma.gif
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y51/muskokaandtahoe/Avatars/4ad3d633.jpg

[Bill Hobbs]

Oakpalms wrote:
"If that is the case, I think a lot of Americans are going to be ticked off having to buy twice to get American content while the Europeans only have to buy once."

Let me offer a different perspective. If I got American content in the original package that I don't care about, I'm going to end up looking elsewhere for additional content anyway. From what we have seen on the lists, there is such a diversity of tastes and interests that Kuju could not select a single route that would make more than a small fraction of the potential customers satisfied.

Personally, I view this as a hobby that can be done "on the cheap" even with payware. The total dollars spent are trivial compared to the cost of other forms of entertainment. Spend an evening at the movies, a live concert, or go to a professional sporting event and tell me how times the cost of RailSimulator that ended up being. At that entertainment does not allow repeat enjoyment.

About the prices of payware. Developers seem to focus a lot on what their tools cost, but fail to take their development time into account. When I look at the payware products available, it stikes me that their advertised price is really cheap compared to the true cost of development (you guys probably don't pay yourselves minimum wage, you know).

Most of the whining about prices for the basic package or for payware is either insincere or misinformed about what is involved in making those products available. (For a really informative view, look at Kuju's latest financials and the development costs of RailSimulator written off for the year.) I doubt many developers sell enough copies of their routes to really cover their true development costs.

So my take on the new package is that, as long as there is a steam route available, that will hold my interest while I (a) learn about how things work in the system, and (b) wait for a payware or freeware route that really interests me to become available.

[CajunRon]

I don't think this is good news. Without this type of "licensing" we got a full range of MSTS add-ons from low quality freeware to high price high quality add-ons and everything in between. It seems to me what this guaranttees is high quality high price(e.g. $39.95 for one loco) add ons and highly varying quality freeware. I personally was considering conversion of my models (UP9000, PRR Decopad, PRR K4, Reading Camelback etc. to KRS for a nominal ($5 per loco) price as a hobbyist, not as a commercial developer. Seems like this will likely eliminate that option and the "hard feelings" will probably cause me to decide against offering them as freeware (but then I usually don't hold grudges so we'll see)...Oh well, Kuju has it's reasons. I'm not sure I understand the objective of this decision and I personally don't think it's a good decision. I think it will squelch, not promote mid-priced add-ons.

[rgarber]

Ron... that is an excellent point. That IS an excellent point. We tend to take it for granted that MSTS afforded us a wonderful opportunity to create much of what we needed and evolve the sim ourselves to the current level of graphic enrichment we have at the moment. My take from all the rumors is the group most infringed upon will be payware route builders. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think there's been any talk of fees or such for someone wanting to sell rollingstock alone. So you may be alright. But in any case, you make it Ron and we'll figure a way to get it out there! You're one talented fella we can't afford to lose! :-) The one thing I think we need to be cautious on is what tools will we need to create add-ons free or otherwise. Ever since the first pictures of KRS you have to think they are using only the best professional design software to produce their textues and models. So forget the fees or whatevers Kuju may add into the mix, can we as homegrown payware afford the Studiomax stuff or whatever else we need to match the quality? Champagne taste beer budget comes to my mind. LOL! Seriously, our homegrown freeware/payware stuff may not be worth either!

Rich Garber

[muskokaandtahoe]

> one thing I think we need to be cautious on is what tools will we need to create add-ons free or otherwise.

It's not going to be limited to questions about the tools. How many MSTS modelers have the skills to produce KRS models of sufficent high quality to stand up to the increased resolution and clarity of KRS? All the extra stuff in DirectX 9? It may be just like getting new eyeglass several years later than you should have -- the details of whole world becomes visible again. Are we all up to that? My hunch is no where near as many people as what we've seen do decent things for MSTS. But at any rate we'll just have to wait for the product to see where the bar really is set.

[b]Dave Nelson
SLW Route Design: The Cal-P, 1950.[b]
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y51/muskokaandtahoe/Avatars/Dancing_Genma.gif
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y51/muskokaandtahoe/Avatars/4ad3d633.jpg

[rgarber]

My point with the tools thing is meant in context with Ron's "just how much is all this gonna cost?" There's an undercurrent that most of us, and as your point makes, may have reached the highest peak we can with what we have at our disposal. And if our best only sums up to the $30's-$40's range now, then just what will the cost of add-ons be with KRS, licensing fees, and the cost the professional tools which amounts to thousands? And then there's the work that goes into making it. There's a point where too much work and too much money for not enough money equates to this ain't worth it and we just shut the doors gladly. I've heard some pretty good things about KRS but it could be the stakes to make add-ons that look "that good" for the same amount of dollars puts add-on development in the laps of the real pros who can do it and know how to turn a profit.

Now this is not to say there can't be a lower price tier market either. Let's say the lower tier market is able to distribute product in the $20-$30 range using tools like 3dcanvas and whatever "lesser" price paint programs makes this doable. Supposedly they say in scuttlebutt "now" that these kinds of effort will yield only average results in KRS. Okay, but if you got a development company who wants to use the best of the best like 3dstudio max, he's gotta charge more to recoup that cost plus more labor, more expensive paint tools, etc. etc. So he obviously needs to charge more. $10? $20? How much more can this outfit charge and have a community support it? That's what I'm saying is where I see problems.

Rich G

[oakpalms]

Rich,
It would seem prudent that Kuju provides for as many addon developers as possible. After all, if American content is not included, and as some have pointed out that even if it is, the route and roadname might not be attractive to a whole lot of individuals. However, if Kuju has done anywork to include America prototype scenery objects, train stations, railroad property, and even rolling stock then that would be a good start for addons to build upon the same as happened with Marias Pass and the NEC with MSTS.

However, if none of these items are included with the initial KRS then it will certainly slow up the process of any and all American addon to come about. It would then mean that KRS, even though available for purchase would be ignored by 90% of the American market. By the time that addon developers invent the wheel, it just might happen that TMTS might be claiming they have revived commercial production. Then where would that leave the American addon developers?

I think that Kuju is going to have to insert American content or face a real possibility of loosing the American market altogether. They can't hope that addon developers will save the market for them by having to develop American material on their own. If they don't add American content, it may be that train-sim users in other countries might just wait to see if TMTS might not come out within a year or two. Just how many addon developers will take the chance of building all American content for KRS with the possibility that TMTS will come out with commercial software which might cause all their work to go down in flames? Would you take that chance?

Bob Edwards

[NickF]

Bob,

I agree with you completely. For my part, I have no intention of purchasing KRS until there is enough North American content to catch my interest. I'll just remain with ol' MSTS and enjoy the stuff I already have.

Nick

[rgarber]

Sticking NA content in the box makes sense if it only gets the product on NA store shelves. It's always being stressed to me, "retail retail... gotta be able to retail it." So how much it matters what's in the box, as long as it includes some NA content, I dunno. But you do want the box on the shelf in our stores for any serious support of this game to happen on this side of the world. And I seriously doubt even EA could generate enough sales to generate enough support for a NA payware market through "just" direct sales to NA customers.

This whole NA issue is confusing to me because up until now all I ever heard was that there was not going to be any NA content in the KRS package but now I hear otherwise (via the rumor mill).

But I don't understand why this comes up after my previous post...

Rich G

[oakpalms]

Rich and eveyone else concerned about American content. If any payware developer wants to contact the individual who send me the following email this morning from some one very high up in the KRS developement, then send me an email message: oakpalms at comcast.net.

I got permission from him to post his message, and he stated in that reply, "we are preparing a pack to go out to several people who have asked questions. It was delayed with me being on holiday, but should go end of this week or early next at latest." Holiday means vacation for all of us on this side of the big pond--not just a day off.

"Hi Robert,

Thanks for the mail –

Kuju is talking to American payware contributors (and we have been doing so for many months – over a year in a couple of cases). I’m not aware that we have not responded to anyone, but if we have I can only apologise. In the 30 October article on the website we have both outlined the scheme and given a specific mail address for payware contributors to write to – hopefully that should mean we don’t miss any.
The licence price will not be high – our aim is only to cover the QA costs. In addition, we intend to be flexible in our structures, recognising that many of the add-on community run on tight margins and it is not our intention to restrict the market.
We believe that a level of independent QA will benefit all parties; and the cost of that is part of the licence scheme; I know the figures we are talking about and it should not have any significant impact on pricing for the end users. I’m not going to quote a number here, because of my comments above, but just to be clear, Kuju are not aiming to make money from the QA service at all. In addition, we hope that with our active support, add-on providers will be able to increase their sales.

We do have the specific add-on address you mention and I hope that once other North American content providers get onto that they will be able to get working with the toolset (and yes, we do have at least one North American partner already using it!). We want a thriving add-on market, and we want it based on high quality add-ons – because we see that as the best future for RS.

Hope that clarifies our position – if you know of anyone who we haven’t responded to, get them to write direct to me and I’ll ensure it gets dealt with. Further, if you think we’re missing a trick here, let me know because we are very keen to keep all of the existing producers in the market and would also like to help get them established in RS.

Regards,"

I hope this encourages everyone over on this side of the pond including large and small payware developers, freeware builders, and future users.

Bob Edwards
North Port, FL

[rgarber]

Okay, so from what I gathered reading this the other day, either contact you or kuju (which I have done previously) and so far bupkiss. Was there a point to this?

Rich Garber

[oakpalms]

Yes, Rick. There was a point to it. I simply tried to get some real information from the leaders at Kuju to resolve questions and assumptions posed by various individuals. I believe the best way to handle any and all assumptions is to find facts. Some people read the assumption/s of someone and take it for being the truth and then they go out and do something totally off the wall. We don't need good people loosing interest in train sim either as developer or user do to false assumptions.

Bob

[landnrailroader]

It is great news --- BUT --- there are some unanswered questions in my mind.

The first and foremost question is in two parts.
Will we have a way to import DEM data to the Sim to extract data or will some commercial developer come out quickly with one at a reasonable price. As a long time DEMEX user on MSTS, I empahitcally state that I would not have yet produced a route if I had to do all the sculpting by hand. I am not that good an artist.
Second part: will I (or i.e. we) be able to digitize waypoints over a aerial image using something like UsaPhotomaps and then transfer those waypoints into viable markers - this is probably IMHO the handiest tool there is for MSTS.

J. H. Sullivan (aka landnrailroader)

[rgarber]

I didn't word myself properly. I mean I sent an email to you (heard nothing back yet) and last week to kuju (heard nothing back yet). That's my point.

And no offense to your mystery letter but it doesn't really answer anything. In fact it contradicts much of what's been said in the past. Ironic when you consider Kuju hasn't said much in the past when ample opportunity has been there. So why Mr. Mystery guy is talking to you (which I think is real nice of him) but not to that group of people in his letter he seems real amicable towards (us payware guys) isn't making much sense.

Rich Garber

[oakpalms]

Rich,
I've not received any email from you. Try again at oakpalms at comcast.net.

Bob

[oakpalms]

Jerry,
I would think that since Kuju first made it possible for those features to be used with MSTS it would be very odd to do anything that would be considered backward progression.

Bob

[High Iron]

In all fairness I too believe that folks need to keep in mind that it was Kuju who made our beloved MSTS and that any and all features that are available to us in MSTS, will by all likelihood, be available in KRS only even better, hopefully less the bugs and quirks. I try at this juncture to view KRS as the MSTS 2 that never was. We all remember how excited we were until we discovered it was scuttled. Until it proves otherwise, give it the chance and benefit of the doubt, it deserves at least that much for trying. We may all be very ecstatic in the end or very disappointed, but I'll give them an "A" either way for just getting something new out there that I can physically put my hands on! It's simple really, if it's good everyone on this forum will have it as soon as it hits the shelf, if not, then very few will buy it and we will all continue on with the status quo, and push it even further along. Either way, I view it as a win win situation for all of us, I see no downer here. Just my two cents worth.

Cheers, High Iron

[CajunRon]

This will probably work fine for established commercial vendors who already have a customer base and cash flow. I still believe it will squelch up-start companies and individuals wishing to "recoup" for their enormous amount of time it takes to make models and routes. Just about any amount of money above say $100 will be significant to up-start companies and individuals who have no established cash flow and no idea if they will (1) be successful in meeting QA requirements and (2) be successful in selling their wears even if they are accepted.

I am still convinced this will squelch and not encourage quality add-ons. Hopefully I will be wrong.

[rgarber]

Okay Bob, you done good. I did get a reply from Mystery Man. It didn't say much but I heard some more stuff through the grape vine that does give one a sense there isn't a plot by Kuju to wipe out the payware folk.

Rich G

[muskokaandtahoe]

I'm still waiting to get a reply.

[b]Dave Nelson
SLW Route Design: The Cal-P, 1950.[b]
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y51/muskokaandtahoe/Avatars/Dancing_Genma.gif
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y51/muskokaandtahoe/Avatars/4ad3d633.jpg

[kujuSabrina]

DEM can be directly used in the game.

GPS data can be used to create Marker files, thus any method can be used to obtain the GPS data.

[landnrailroader]

Sabrina, your comments on DEM and GPS data is good news. I guess you means DEM Modules, but I hope you are referring to the seamless DEM data and if KUJU is thinking of this, it is readily available free from seamless.usgus.gov. Tends to be a bit slow on the extraction, depending on how much data one is extracting, but it is a lot more desirable than DEM modules which tend to have gaps between them.

GPS data for marker files. Should be fine there as well. If we know the format of the Marker data, presumably a file like the .mkr file in MSTS, we ought to be able to cobble up a translator.

I have kept all of the data from my previous routes, and if the new simulator is relatively bug free, I might consider reissuing some of them, especially the MIlwaukee Road items.

However, now comes the big IF, a really BIG IF. If wonder if we will be able to translate, or massage, the .s/.sd files of objects into the necessary formats for the KUJU product, bearing in mind that this particular format was evidently chosen by KUJU. If it is a significantly better product, especially in the video area, then ability to translate routes would not be useful IMHO, even if it were possible - but objects, there must be a gazillion objects out there now for MSTS SO---------?????

Jerry Sullivan

[Richard]

Hello Jerry,
You bring up an excellent point :) Since KUJU created MSTS, why would it not be possible for them to create an import feature in RS to allow us to import shapes used in MSTS? In my honest opinion, having this feature would sway me into purchasing the product. Even if the sim had the ability to create routes automatically, without North American content I'd pass on the product, having an MSTS shape import feature would allow me to import North American content.


Thanks,
Rich S.

[Richard]

The bad news is all commercial products have to be approved by KUJU. This is the same sort of thing Apple Computers does and that is why most commercial developers, create new products for PC's I understand KUJU's point in wanting to ensure only the best is created for the new Rail Simulator, but at the same time if commercial developers are required to have everything OK'd by KUJU, they may go tired of the process and move onto greener pastures.

Rich S.

[kmanc21]

IIRC Kuju sold the rights (all of them) to MS. If that is so, Kuju has no rights to any of the code for MSTS.

[Richard]

Hello Ken,
They would not need to use any MSTS code. Basically all they would need to do is read the shape and texture file then their program would make any modifications necessary to display and store the new shapes and textures in the format Rail Simulator is using. The way I see it, it's the sort of thing we do with Google sketchup. We create an object in Google sketchup, say a house, then use the export feature to save the house as a shape file. Google sketchup or the export feature does not use MSTS code, they just use their own code to create something MSTS can read, so why can't the oppsite be done?

Take care,
Rich S.

[landnrailroader]

IMHO, there should be little problem, technical, legal, or otherwise if KUJU provided a translator, or if some adventuresome third party did it.
Ever since Flightsim-9*, somewhere in the early 90s, there have been provided translators that allowed massaging an aircraft object up to the newer software level. It might have been cumbersome especially if you had to massage upward through three or four levels, and the end result might not have been as good as if you did it from scratch, but it generally worked. Other vendors provided ways to massage objects for the ground, so I simply ask, what is the difference here?
Also, Microsoft officially discontinued MSTS, so they should have no further interest in what is done with it. I am hopeful that KUJU will have solved the graphic display issues in MSTS, although the use of this new physics card does not make my wallet particularly happy, and lets see, when I lay out $300 for a new card, my wife will probably go out and get at least that in new stuff for herself.

Jerry S.