TSM object problems with MSTS

[High Iron]

Hi,

Wanted to know if anyone else has had a problem with objects made in Train Sim Modeler causing MSTS Route Editor to crash? I made a trestle for the first time and used the conversion utility within TSM to create the object within MSTS. It of course did not work, so going back to basics, I made a simple cube and put a simple texture on it, and did the same conversion process. Once again the object showed in the selection box but once I tried to place it, RE crashed. When planting trees, everything works fine so I know at least that much works. No thumbnail images show in the selection box as well. Does anyone know what might be causing this? The conversion process indicates the files have been successfuly converted, and the files look good within the Shapes folder. I'm stumped...x(

Thanks, High Iron

[Hawk]

Check for spaces in the names of any texture files and project files.
Spaces Bad! No Spaces Good! :-)

[RonMays]

Also, I have found that TSM is not always reliable for converting bmp's and tga's to ace files. I have found that the surest way is to do these file conversions myself (I like TGATool but you can also use the programs that came with MSTS or Route Riter can do it). I only use TSM to create the shape files.

[High Iron]

Hi fellas. Thanks for your responses.

Hack - Yes I made sure there were no spaces in the filenames. I did some research on the forums before I did all this to try to avoid as many problems as possible, and your suggestion was on one of the threads I read. Thanks nonetheless though.

Ron - I did recall such a problem on one the forum threads as well, however, in the TSM tutorials it indicates that shapes can be imported into MSTS without textures. I tried this, and that too failed, even after following their example to the "T". I guess I'll have to fiddle around with using another program to do the texture conversions and pray it doesn't create another problem for me to try to figure out. I was hoping for TSM to do it all to prevent path, name, etc. problems. Suppose it's time to roll up my sleeves! Thanks Ron, much appreciated.

Cheers, High Iron

[Hawk]

That's Hawk, not Hack. Hack is Marc from 3DTrains. :-)

Can you post your conversion report? That might give a clue.

[RonMays]

If doing the textures yourself doesn't fix it, then you must have run afoul of one or more of TSM's quirks. On one of the MSTS sites (not this one or UK Trainsim) there are some tutorials on texturing that also included some tips on how to avoid problems with TSM. They used to be at Gryphon Media Design but I think their materials went elsewhere. It might help you to track that down.

Perhaps one of the others knows the site I mean - it is the one that has the do-it-yourself shop TSM model and short tutorials on how to make night textures, bricks, etcetera.

Good luck

[baldwin]

When exporting from TSM do not have texture compression on. TSM will corrupt the textures and MSTS will not work with that shape in the route. Same applies to rolling stock models.

Beer is not a matter of life and death. It is much more serious than that.
mervyn.

[landnrailroader]

I learned a long time ago that TSM will not convert textures reliably other than to get the correct coordinates of what to use in the texture. This is particularly true if you have alpha channels.

I exclusively use TgaTools to convert all my textures, and have had no problem.

J. H. Sullivan

[High Iron]

High again fellas,

Sorry for taking so long to get back to all of you, my computer decided to commit suicide and crash hard. Just got Windows reinstalled and am completing all the work to fix all the program paths, I'm sure everyone here knows what I mean.

Sorry Hawk, didn't mean to screw up your user name. I do talk to Hack (Marc) as well so it was a honest mistake. I'm sure I'm not the first or the last to do this. LOL

I will try using a different program to do the texture conversion, I have both Route Riter and TGA. I made sure not to use texture compression, just to avoid another possibility, when converting the file using TSM. If that fails I will post the results of the conversion process to see if anyone can see the culprit. It would seem by the messages that the texture file conversion is the most likely cause of this... I hope. Thanks again all, and I'll be sure to let you know of my findings either way :-)

Cheers, High Iron

[High Iron]

Hi again.

After reinstalling everything I have once again taken up trying to get objects into the RE. I also still have the same problem, objects will not convert to MSTS and if they do they cause RE to crash. I tried an experiment. I loaded one of the pre-made projects, a water tower, and it converted fine. It also loaded flawlessly into the RE. Again from scratch I made a basic cube, named it TEST2, slapped a texture on it and saved it. I then did the conversion process on this item and got the following message:

Conversion Unsuccessful
Error!
Failed to copy file!r
Source: TSM.sr
Destination: E:\TRAINS~1\Routes\CanUsa\Shapes\F:\TS Modeler\Projects\TEST2.s


Conversion Report:

TSM.s - TrainSim shape file
TSM_ascii.s - ascii version of shape file
TSM.sd - TrainSim shape definition file
Converted texture:
E:\TRAINS~1\utils\makeace "F:\TS Modeler\Projects\TCTrestle copy.bmp" "TCTrestle copy.ace" -dxt
TCTrestle copy.ace Texture copied to E:\TRAINS~1\Routes\CanUsa\Textures\TCTrestle copy.ace
Failed to copy file!r
Source: TSM.sr
Destination: E:\TRAINS~1\Routes\CanUsa\Shapes\F:\TS Modeler\Projects\TEST2.s

---------------------

It appears that when in RE it is not able to open the shape file when they do go through conversion successfully. Not sure why it failed to copy file!r, what ever this is. The project file is located within the same folder as the water tower. Needless to say, I am absolutely stumped! Can anyone see what I am doing wrong or what I have missed in the steps?

[Hawk]

E:\TRAINS~1\utils\makeace "F:\TS Modeler\Projects\TCTrestle copy.bmp" "TCTrestle copy.ace"

Looks like there's a space in the texture name to me. ;-)

[rpicardi1]

Spaces in file name, as well as any characters other then alpha numeric will cause problems. Remove the space in the texture name or replace it with an _ and try again.

SRV Ron

[High Iron]

All right, I didn't check for spaces in the textures properly. I renamed the offenders and was finally able to get my basic cube to import into RE without problems. I did the same for the trestle and it didn't work unfortunatly. I have a feeling too many poly's might be the culprit, it is pretty detailed and looks very good but I think it's going to be a bust for MSTS. I've included a conversion log for anyones review, if you can see a problem, as you folks did before perhaps I might finally get the holy grail of my route. If not, than thanks for all the help nonetheless, at least I can now get simple objects to import.

Cheers, and Happy New Year
Thad


Conversion Unsuccessful
Error!
Failed to copy file!r
Source: TSM.sr
Destination: E:\TRAINS~1\Routes\CanUsa\Shapes\F:\TS Modeler\Projects\TCBridge.s


Conversion Report:

TSM.s - TrainSim shape file
TSM_ascii.s - ascii version of shape file
TSM.sd - TrainSim shape definition file
Converted texture:
E:\TRAINS~1\utils\makeace "F:\TS Modeler\Projects\TPaint.bmp" "TPaint.ace" -dxt
TPaint.ace Texture copied to E:\TRAINS~1\Routes\CanUsa\Textures\TPaint.ace
Converted texture:
E:\TRAINS~1\utils\makeace "F:\TS Modeler\Projects\Rivets2.bmp" "Rivets2.ace" -dxt
Rivets2.ace Texture copied to E:\TRAINS~1\Routes\CanUsa\Textures\Rivets2.ace
Converted texture:
E:\TRAINS~1\utils\makeace "F:\TS Modeler\Projects\3Rivits.bmp" "3Rivits.ace" -dxt
3Rivits.ace Texture copied to E:\TRAINS~1\Routes\CanUsa\Textures\3Rivits.ace
Converted texture:
E:\TRAINS~1\utils\makeace "F:\TS Modeler\Projects\HRivits.bmp" "HRivits.ace" -dxt
HRivits.ace Texture copied to E:\TRAINS~1\Routes\CanUsa\Textures\HRivits.ace
Failed to copy file!r
Source: TSM.sr
Destination: E:\TRAINS~1\Routes\CanUsa\Shapes\F:\TS Modeler\Projects\TCBridge.s

[rpicardi1]

> E:\TRAINS~1\utils\makeace "F:\TS Modeler\Projects\HRivits.bmp" "HRivits.ace" -dxt
HRivits.ace Texture copied to E:\TRAINS~1\Routes\CanUsa\Textures\HRivits.ace
Failed to copy file!r

Problem appears to be with the shape file conversion.

Make sure that orphan points are deleted, objects are combined, you are in the part mode before conversion, and that you didn't use the double side poly option when editing polys which doesn't work.

Beware of a 3500 poly limit for objects in MSTS.

Edit the shape and try again.

SRV Ron

Edit, If you are still having problems, you can send me the file and I will have a look at it.

[High Iron]

Yup, just as I thought.

My trestle which is large has 19,112 poly's when converted :7
When I started designing the thing 3 years ago, I was not aware of a poly limit. I did all above as you said, made sure there were no orphan points, objects are combined and even checked for non liniar poly planes. I never recall using a double side poly option, so I don't think I had any. I did use filenames with spaces which is a no no, I thought I had eliminted them all but clearly I hadn't :o
I'm going to spend my long weekend redoing the trestle. I saved it at various stages of contruction, and will attempt to build the monster in pieces within the RE. I can also use some optical shortcuts to help reduce the poly count of the beast. It won't look as good in detail, but it will beat the open vastness I have now in a canyon with a strength and gravity defying stretch of track :P
If I still run into the same issues, and I cross my fingers I won't, I'll get in touch with you and send you the file to see if you can find the error in my ways.

Back to the drawing board for awhile,
Thanks to all again for your info, I have learned a lot as usual and will apply it diligently this time.

Cheers, Thad

[rpicardi1]

I, and other viaduct modelers, have used alpha channel on tiled textures, in order to put such structures on a poly diet and still have them look good with cross bracings.

SRV Ron

http://forums.flightsim.com/vbts/up1/114018.jpg

Example cross brace texture used on wood viaducts.

[High Iron]

This is a little off topic, but I noticed when I have been building new trestle parts and check the project statistics, that the poly count is doubled after conversion. Does anyone have the answer as to why this is? A deck plate girder span I have been working on had 36 polys within TS Modeler, but jumpes to 72 after conversion according to the projects statistics. Is this due to the double sided poly mentioned earlier? I just want to make sure before I get too far again, and have do this over a third time. It's easy to fix now.

Cheers, Thad

[RonMays]

>This is a little off topic, but I noticed when I have been
>building new trestle parts and check the project statistics,
>that the poly count is doubled after conversion. Does anyone
>have the answer as to why this is?

Hi Thad

The poly count doubles because a poly in the MSTS graphics engine is a triangle. So a single rectangular poly in TSM is represented by two triangular poly's in MSTS.

I would also like to reinforce what Ron said about using simpler methods to make highly detailed objects with fewer poly's. For good examples take a look at some of Ron's bridges - he has been kind enough over the years to upload both dsp and dst files for a number of them, and they serve as a great source of ideas and learning tools. You will see some very complex structures made of many many beam, column and bracing sections that if fully modeled would result in tens of thousands of polys for a single model. The trick is, and its one I learned from Ron and others too, is to only model what the eye will see in MSTS, and save the fine detail for places where you will be close enough to need it. Using the transparency method he talks about allows you to make very fine detail without driving up the poly count. As an example, the pix attached show a small weather tower I recently modeled. I also show the texture used. The total poly count in TSM for this structure is only 12 (14 if you add the ladder). To assemble it from individual columns and braces would take about 90 polys just for the tower.

One final point - you don't have to go all the way back to the beginning to start over. You can subdivide your existing model by selecting sets of parts, joining them, then save the joined set as a part. Then start a new object using only that part. You can divide up a big project very quickly that way.

Good luck

http://forums.flightsim.com/vbts/up1/114049.jpg


http://forums.flightsim.com/vbts/up1/114050.jpg

[High Iron]

Thanks again Ron, now I know why you guys make the good stuff. I wasn't aware of the triangle poly in MSTS for models. I guess that makes it clear as for the change in poly's. As for starting the thing from scratch it's not all that bad. I made several major errors in the constuction that I now have the opportunity to fix. I also wasn't too smart when I made the different sections along the way, because I had merged the parts befor saving the file. This makes it impossible to dissasemble afterwards. It also made it a texturing nightmare. I decided to build the thing first, merge all the parts and then try to texture. This made using certain visual texturing, such as lattice impossible. I learned a lot from my previous mistakes, plus the info you gentlemen have provided and beleive I will be much happier with the end result of a remake. When finished I'll be sure to provide images of my work for you fellas to critique.

Thanks again, Thad

[RonMays]

No problem Thad. Learning TSM has been very enjoyable for me, but it does have its aggravating moments for sure. There are many talented TSM designers on the forum to help when you hit a rough spot. You have the right idea on texturing as you go - life is much easier that way. As far as merging the parts together, you don't actually need to ever do it if you don't want to. Just make sure you are in Part mode when you export and TSM won't care.

Ron

[High Iron]

I started everything from scratch and again I'm getting an error message. The pre-packaged projects import with no problem. I did some in depth research this time and noticed that the file extention on my saved project is .dst.bak when all the rest are .dsp file extentions. TSM seems to be having troubles finding the shape folder when converting. I don't know what the difference between the two is, but I think it may be the source of my problems. No matter how I save the project, I can not get it to save as a DSP file. Any idea's as why this might be?

Thanks, Thad

[RonMays]

>I started everything from scratch and again I'm getting an
>error message. The pre-packaged projects import with no
>problem. I did some in depth research this time and noticed
>that the file extention on my saved project is .dst.bak when
>all the rest are .dsp file extentions. TSM seems to be having
>troubles finding the shape folder when converting. I don't
>know what the difference between the two is, but I think it
>may be the source of my problems. No matter how I save the
>project, I can not get it to save as a DSP file. Any idea's as
>why this might be?

Thad

When you save a project, it should have a .dst suffix. In TSM, the .dst are the project files, and .dsp are for part files. When you see one of these with a .bak extension it just means that TSM has saved a backup copy from your previous save. If you don't have any .dst files it means you are just saving parts and not saving the whole project. If you use the SAVE AS from the File menu, it will save the whole project as a .dsp.

[High Iron]

Hi again fellas.

I finally found the solution to my TS Modeler problem. I posted on the unofficial TS Modeler forum on Atomic. Someone responded who had the same problem as I and gave me the solutions which I want to share with you all in case this question should arise again, and I'm not aroung to answer it.
The problem was solved by changing the Short name in the Project Properties window of the "Create TS Object File"
As an example, I created a project called "60PGirder"
By default the Short name produces the following path within the Project Properties window:

C:\TS Modeler\Projects\60PGirder

This resulted in the error message you see in my previous post when trying to export to MSTS. By changing the Short name to simply:

60PGirder.s

The problem was solved. All projects now import into MSTS flawlessly.
Note, I had to delete all the path information and add the ".s" to the end of the name. I'm not sure why I and a very few others have experienced this problem, but it worked. Hopefully, this will add to the knowledge base of problems with exporting projects into MSTS from TS Modeler. Another rare, but quirky issue with TS Modeler.

Once again, thanks to all that tried to help. Now we're armed with one more solution to a problem.

Cheers, Thad

[RonMays]

Hi Thad

I'm very glad you found the answer. I never ran into that problem and would never have figured it out. Perseverance paid off for you - a good quality to have when working with MSTS!