BIN 1.6 wish list - NO MORE GAME OVER!!!!

[sniper297]

My perfect vision of MSTS - I run a red signal without asking permission, the activity does not end. I break a coupler, collide head-on with an AI train, derail half my train on a curve, the activity does not end.

I realize there's no wrecker train to clear the tracks, but if only a few cars are blocking the main you might be able to bulldoze thru them to knock them out of the way. If not, depending on the route, you may be able to find an alternate route around the blocked mainline.

Obviously if the player engine derails you really can't do anything further - but damn it, I'm a big boy, I can decide for myself if the activity is hopeless or not! Why they programmed this idiotic "GAME OVER" nonsense in to begin with is beyond me, but let's get rid of it if at all possible.

Those oddballs who actually LIKE having the activity end when you pass a red signal or bump a freightcar off the end of a spur, you can just hit the escape key and PRETEND the blasted thing ended automatically!

[pstraten]

No arguments from me!

If an engineer passes a lowball in real life, the world doesn't come to an end and the universe doesn't revert to primordial plasma does it?

At least I'm still flapping at my keyboard.

Happy Thanksgiving, Sniper.



PaulS

http://forums.flightsim.com/vbts/up1/67488.gif

[Turbo Bill]

To be honest, in the real world if you do pass a red you world does come to an end for 30 days for the first offense. Second offense is one year and third offense is lifetime. At least that is what is was were I worked. Also it also comes to an end permanantly if your the blatant cause of a costly pile up. Especially if the environment is invovled. What you want changes a similation, which I believe is how most people treat MSTS, to just a game. If so then why bother with realistic physics and track and scenery which is what TS.com is about and payware as well. Just load the original version in your comp without any of the updates and play what the original really was closer too.....a game. Why not be able to stop your unrealistic playing game train like the original models from MS/Kuju did when first released. I was actually very surprised upon reading your original post. I thought that thinking had died with all the efforts everybody puts in to mimicking RW looks and feel of MSTS equipment.

[pstraten]

It isn't "just a game" Bill. Neither is it a corporate simulator meant to train a railroad's real-life engineers and punish them for failures.

I'm with Jim on this one, though I see your take on it.




PaulS

http://forums.flightsim.com/vbts/up1/67488.gif

[drjoe]

Bill,

Jim does have a point as far as MSTS. Yes you should get penalized, but it is not necessary to end the game session. You may not have experienced it yet, but if an AI train derails or if two of them collide, your activity is over. Yes create a penalty in the evaluation, but don't necessarily end the game automatically in every instance.

[Hobart]

I agree 100%, but would add disabling the hysterical, neurotic, non stop checking for missing cars, textures, shapes or whatever. Oh a shape is missing, so don't place the SOB and move on.

[sniper297]

Yeah, I'd buy that, but if you could fix the way it uses memory you could kiss all them "failed to create SMS object" and "error inserting/removing" incidents entirely.

Bill, I don't know where to start. It IS a game, if it was a training device I wouldn't be interested in playing it. Flip side of what Joe said - if you're going to end automatically for blowing a red light or breaking a coupler, why have an evaluation at all? In for a penny, in for a pound, end the activity if in train forces are exceeded, 1mph over speed limit, 10 seconds late at a station stop, any operational error at all ends the activity.

"To be honest, in the real world if you do pass a red you world does come to an end for 30 days for the first offense."

And do they portray that realistically? Unlike most combat flightsims, there's no career mode here, which would be a lot better. Pray tell, how exactly do they do that in the real world - you blow a red signal and the world magically freezes, and you get removed from the cab? What happens to the train now that there's no engineer in it? If it isn't really possible to freeze the world, do they run a helicopter alongside and shoot the engineer? The whole idea of ending the game for those reasons is ludicrous, in the real world there would be consequences for actions, but the end of the world would not be one of those consequences. I would actually prefer realism - break a coupler and a repair crew comes out to fix it, derail and the wrecker train shows up to clear the line, but that's not really practical within the limits of the game.


"Second offense is one year and third offense is lifetime. At least that is what is was were I worked. Also it also comes to an end permanantly if your the blatant cause of a costly pile up"

Okay, let's do that instead. Blowing a red light ends the activity, closes the sim, and disables the EXE file so you can't run the software at all until the penalty time limit is over. A career ending error would uninstall and invalidate the game, so you'd have to go out and buy a new copy before you could play again.

Obviously that's stupid, but to my way of thinking the way KUJU originally programmed it is totally retarded too.

[Turbo Bill]

But if you do periodic saves, you can go back and rerun thru that mistake point and learn and move on. Perhaps more correctly would be for the sim to halt, give you a popup notation describing the mistake and then go on. The point I was making is that if you blow a signal you will be lined into the next siding and removed from the train, both crewmembers actually. Given a piss test and sent home for the penalty period. I figure the no go and failed activity is not out of line. You do that a few times, I would think you would know by now you don't pass a red without permission or your play will end and have to be restarted from the beginning or last save point. But to throw the most basic and important rules such as stopping for a red and not turfing your train out the window is too far IMO. You play any game and if you get shot by the opposing charecter, the game ends and you have to start over. This is how I've seen any PC game I've played or watched. That's the whole idea isn't it. To follow the rules of gameplay and survive to the successful end of the activity/level. I do wholeheartilly agree with the shape failing to load arguement. If the sim doesn't have the oomph to load a shape let the game go on a leave it out. It should run on at what processing abilities are there. Kinda like automatic slider setting as the lighter and heavier tiles load. Maybe Bin George could do this with the code. Also a properly set up activity in the AE should not have AI's colliding in the game or there's a miscalculation in AI times or paths. It's in the details that make an activity playable or crashes due to AE errors. Go adctivity writers do not have this problem unless they cut corners in testing.

[rd4man]

>But if you do periodic saves,

That would be alright.....IF.....there was a way of editing the saves so you knew what they were when you went back in instead of just a time and date. Maybe BIN can fix that.

[drjoe]

Bill,

In a perfect world with the best activity designers, there would be no AI problems, but.... there is no "trigger" to start an AI after a player train passes a certain point, so it all depends on timing. In some activities, the timing is very critical, and if the player is early or late, the AI engine gets "disoriented". At times, AI trains travel at "restricted" speed after going past a red, never returning to speed, even after passing a green signal. In one of Rich Garber's Ohio Rail activities, I once had an AI train catching me from the rear. Just saying that users do weird things, and even the best designed activity may have problems because the AI dispatcher is not very intelligent.

As to the frequent saves, even before MSTSBin, I had tweaked my system to eliminate 99.99% of the crashes, so I have gotten out of the habit of saving for crashes. My only saves happen when I am running out of time to continue the activity.

How nice it would be to have a "location event" that would as it's action, "release" an AI train. Then you could have an AI "primed" in an area, and it would "wait" until your train passed a certain point. Having that would make adding AI much easier and more reliable.

[Turbo Bill]

I agree on the location event triggering AI movements. That really would make activity writing easier and require less test runs to get it timed right. To play it safe, I never have overlapping paths for my AI's and include a time schedule for the player to follow in order to see all the eye candy.

In retrospect, I have to acknowledge that people play MSTS for different reasons and some play it to see the trains of yesterday or trains they can't see jue to geographical location. I, being an ex-railroader and engineer, play it and treat it as an affordable Similator which allows me the joy of doing my old job again. MSTS is one of the PC success stories to me in that a very broad base uses it and the fact that it lives on strong and getting better thanks to Bin George, where many other games have long since died and dissappeared from the PC landscape.

[OTTODAD]

Yes guys, I too am with Jim on that and have moaned about this before.

Appears that KRS is going to do away with that and perhaps at the end of the activity will announce "You passed trough a RED signal and if you do that again will get your bottom smacked", or words to that effect ! ;-)

I have gotten round this by switching all of a route's signals to GREEN so that I can do what I like in an activity !

Take care, O t t o.

[ragtimer]

The sim should allow the player to enable/disable these features to whatever suits.That way everyone (hopefully) would be satisfied.Similar to turning derailments and AI fireman on/off

[pstraten]

Well duh! Now why didn't I think of that? :-)



PaulS

http://forums.flightsim.com/vbts/up1/67488.gif

[CajunRon]

Bill, you've hit on a very sensitive issue with me. I have not problem with being "canned" for running a red signal. My problem is the teleporting of the whole dang train back to the beginning of the route. Now THAT is NOT real!. In real life the offender would continue (or at the very worst a new engineer be brought in to finish the run). So why can't I just "morph" into another engineer and take over the train from where the "dumb a.." (my "other" me) ran the red.

Okay, I'll settle down now ;-)

[Kenny1234]

I just get a little worried that the developers of these improvements are going to be sidetracked by alot of silly requests for weird things.

I was rerunning some NEC4 activities recently, and simply adding a few loose consists really made the sim act weird. We need improvements there, or a revised activity or route editor that are easier to use LONG BEFORE we need car doors that open and close, or mirrors/sunshades which fold and unfold, or loads which "unload" before our eyes. The development of improved essentials should not be set aside for more of thse "toy-like" frills.

[oakpalms]

I never thought I would read these comments by some of you guys--intentionally running a Red light? Now that is truly realistic! How far can you get before a headon collision? I know the sim sometimes gives a false red--why not get that problem solved rather than simply driving through the signal, all derailed trains, and whatever. If we fix the false reds then we would know the red signal was legit.

Proceeding with broken couplers? That usually means someone has a bad section of track with the change for coupler settings in the wag files the way we have made them. Why do we want to permit sloppy track work? Wouldn't the train become disconnected at the point of the break? That would probably foul up a lot of activities. I think it is more wise to get route builders to correct the bad track be it freeware or payware.

Changing the route to all green lights--why have any lights at all?
Why not make the Explore mode to include AI traffic?

In the real world running a red signal would result in a collision or a head to head meet requiring one train to back up or take a another siding should one be available. While those options sound more realistic, how would the computer deal with the situation other than to plow through the oncoming train/s? For all the realism that some of you have added to the sim, I am taken back by the lack of realism that has been suggested.

I would like to see the ability to run a Red signal and then to be able back out of it such as not getting stopped soon enough and when
switching and you cut your train with part on one side of the signal and part on the other side. I don't think that should stop the play unless a collision takes place--for any collision, I think the activity should end! If not, we will get activities with all kinds of collisions.

Concerning infractions and subsequent reprimands--3dtrainstuff did a terrible injustice to Cajon Pass causing the ending of the activity for not sounding the horn for a level crossing. It can't get any worse than that, and they have never put out a patch for people to remove that penalty. You can be in the rear camera mode and still get nailed!

It would be good in future sims if the developer would include an upload location and automatic reporting for the infration where the person running the red would be placed on a thirty day bad driver/engineer list for the first infraction, then after 30 days are up and no more violations, then the name would be removed. If more violations occur during that time, then the name would be placed on another list of blackballed persons. The list could then be viewed by all of us at anytime to see who is a good/bad engineer.


Bob Edwards

[atsf37l]

That'd be "...your bum smacked." I'd have thought a loyal subject of the Crown would have gotten that right...... ;)

[sniper297]

Geez, Bob, now you've gone over the top. What was 3dtrainstuff supposed to do, just let you guys cruise thru any grade crossing you want without blowing the horn? Anarchy! The activity SHOULD end for that, and all you guys just aren't mature enough to make that decision for yourselves, so 3dtrainstuff made it for you! ;)

[OTTODAD]

It's the same with the MSFS where the customer has the choice to make planes crash proof, never run out of fuel and fly planes anyway and anywhere they like, as per customizable settings.

The same must apply to all other simulators. If I want all my signals to be GREEN in a FREESTYLE EXPLORE ROUTE activity full of loose consists and have AI trains running on tracks not likely to be used by the Player then that's my decision and nobody is going to tell me otherwise !!!

O t t o

[wiscentral]

Ok...I have to crawl out of the paint shop and back Jim on one .
You run a red signal cause you squeeked accross the line a little trying to stop your train. Fine, no crash, just throw it in reverese and clear the signal. You got to be allowed to make errors and know how to correct them and prevent a disaster.

How about we plug in a breathalayzer and that should tell if we can play TS or not?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?


Leave the punishment in the activity review screen.


Deanno
"wiscentral"
CEO/Founder of Sceeter's Paint Shop

[tpilot]

Like stated previously, to me the biggest problem is not that I run a red signal, even by a little bit and the activity ends, but two AI trains crash somewhere and I get penalized for it.

[oakpalms]

Jim,

The effects of 3dtrainstuff causing the activity to end for not sounding the engine horn for level crossings would not be so bad if it only applied to the cab view. When in the 2,3, and 4 views it should not function, but it does thus really making those views unavailable at the risk of abruptly ending the activity.

Bob

[Turbo Bill]

By any chance does the scenery expansion pack remove the requirement to blow or you get a game over?

[rd4man]

>My perfect vision of MSTS - I run a red signal without asking
>permission, the activity does not end.

I think I solved this problem. Check the 'main' forum for my post on "Speed Limits at Approach (and other) Signals -"

I'm starting to modify my routes now and it's much more realistic. 'Course one has to know the Rules!!

[rd4man]

Well, guess I shudda tested before posting! Activity still ends passing a RED even though there's no restriction showing on the Track Monitor.

Sorry!

[OTTODAD]

I think this is one George could perhaps modify to just show the Alert but not stop the activity ? Will mention it !

O t t o

[rd4man]

That would be G R E A T !