Bin and Trailing units

[Turbo Bill]

Otto or anyone conversing with Bin George I have a question or train of thought. As you all know the independant brakes only work on lead engines with trailing units working like a regular wagon. In reality the rear engines rarely are ever allowed to set their brakes when using train air to control speed or slow down. You always bail off when a train is stretched and when using dynamic brakes the "Dynamic Brake Interlock" prevents the locomotives brakes from setting and this includes the trailing units. Here is the thought I'm having. Can Bin George be asked to change the brake activation of trailing units and AI's in the locomotive consist to set their brakes based on the independant brake application instead of the train air? This would be more prototypical to have all units brakes apply when using the independant in switching as well as having them follow the independant brake and set like the lead unit does and then release when bailing off when train air is used. If George could change the trailing units to follow the lead unit in this manner we would take a large step again toward realistic train operations as again, the trailing units do not follow the train air line but what the lead unit tells them in regard to when it's control valves tell the independant brakes to set up and release as stated above. This would also allow us to use higher max brake values on all locomotives so realistic braking can be achieved with multiple units and having the added braking of those extra units when using the engine brakes.

[OTTODAD]

Hi Bill !

I think that at the moment he is busy improving things in MSTS which are more of general interest, making use of time off work over the holidays !

Below is what he is working on at the moment, the WHITE VOID being eliminated forinstance.

You could always use the e-mail function in his web site's Links section, explaining what you are after in your own words: http://mstsbin.uktrainsim.com/eng/eng.html
this being more of interest to "Pro Users" rather than "Common" ones ! ;-)

O t t o

http://forums.flightsim.com/vbts/up1/113686.jpg

[Turbo Bill]

Actually Otto this in not a Pro thing but a reality with multiple units. The way MSTS is set up now on how it treats trailing unit braking is exactly opposite of how it really is treated on real trains and dead on wrong. This is a fix that really needs to be looked at by someone that can correct the code on how trailing engines and braking in conjunction with the lead locomotive are handled. I will post there as well as.

[OTTODAD]

Like I said, Bill, I and many others are amateurs driving trains realistically compared to you, Sharon, Ragtimer and other real train drivers.

I remember films from earlier railroading days in the USA when drivers of lead and helper engines communicated with on-board phones to get their act together on difficult stretches of the route and in the old steam age days in Austria used whistle codes to communicate with each other ! ;-)

Nowadays, don't the front locos control all others, being connected to them somehow, engineers in the helpers just monitoring that all is well and override controls if not ?

George has been quiet lately and hope that he has not caught an early Winter bug to spoil his Christmas ! :-(

Take care, O t t o.

[Turbo Bill]

Helpers is another issue and if those brakes don't set when the train air is used, that's OK, a couple won't make a difference. My main concern is that trailing units should have their brakes match what the lead engine brakes do. The independant/engine brake reacts to both the independant handle and what you do with the trainline brake handle as well requiring a bail off when ap-plying the train brakes. This again is where the sim is dead wrong. Those trailing units should be mirroring what the lead engines brakes do in regards to the independant side of the equation. Again train simming skill has nothing to do with it. The sim is just wrong and would be nice if this error could be corrected. Anyone who has run trains to simmers who know their trains will tell you the sim is totally incorrect in this area. This applies to all mu'd diesels worldwide, not just in North America. It is as incorrect as the malfunctioning front coupler. If it can be fixed, I hope George will take a look at it at least.

[tpilot]

Bill, I'm going to agree with Otto on this one.

I think your idea is valid (I'm sure it is), but I would much rather see the Great White Void problem, MSTS use all my available RAM, and an extra 10-20 FPS in the sim first.

I think it would be a good idea to submit your idea AFTER the next MSTS Bin version is released (I don't think it will be the last one).

Also, just to clarify - to you trailing engines means all engines behind the lead engine, correct? (We are not just talking about "T" or reversed engines, b/c I think a lot of Bin users removed those since BIN now handles bogies correctly.

Also, I had a semi-related topic.

Do we also need to look at how AI engines are handled on the player consist. (Or is BIN George looking into this already?)

Prior to BIN, an AI was used behind the player engine b/c otherwise the sounds wouldn't throttle with the player engine. But the AI engine did not have a cabview, but that didn't matter since you couldn't switch cabs anyway. Not that you can switch cabs, it seems like you have to choose between not being able to switch to the cab, or not having the sound throttle up with the lead engine.

[ianmacmillan]

It is only with recent electronic controls and thru wiring that any loco behind the lead loco had anything other than the thru pipe to control the brake.

Changing the way a helper loco brake works would make any older US loco and most UK and European locos behave incorrectly.

[TJTX]

I've got to side with TurboBill on this one. I would very much like to see the multi-unit braking problem fixed to reflect prototypical operation as well.

While I agree priorities need to be set, I think this one should be moved near the top since it is so different from reality.

As long as I'm here, THANK YOU to George and anyone else involved in the BIN project. HUGE improvement so far and I'm looking forward to what comes next. Sometimes our little band is too quick to complain, too slow to praise and the end result hurts everyone so again, THANKS!

[Turbo Bill]

I'm talking when any engine is used as a trailing unit. And I didn't mean this had to be done now but perhaps in a future patch. Just adding another MSTS snafu to his list of things to investigate. Since most railroading is simmed with the older air controlled braking, this is why I brought it up. I would still bet that you bail off even with the electronics as those engines will bunch upthe headend if the brakes set up using train air. As of now with the new couplers you can see those trailing units bunch the headend of the train up when this should not be happening. Again, I'm just posting something that should be looked at.