An Interesting Concept: Invisible Signals

[TrainMan_112]

Now, I know what most of you are thinking. "What's the point of signals if you can't see em'?!" Signals ARE required to govern traffic in RailSimulator, right? Well, in real life, they're not always necessary for traffic control. I'm talking about Dark Territory. On lines where the traffic density (rather low) just doesn't warrant the cost of installing Searchlight signals and their corresponding control system (CTC, ABS, etc..etc) railroads use Clearances (Track Warrants in the US). I'm sure most of you know off by heart what I'm talking about, but for those who don't I'll explain. A clearance/track warrant is a pre-printed form in which a crew member (usually the conductor) will copy information relayed from the dispatcher/RTC onto. For example, a dispatcher/RTC will clear a train from A-B. Upon arrival at point B, the dispatcher will relay more information onto another form. If a meet is to take place, the dispatcher/RTC will give instructions such as: "Do not proceed until CP XXXX West arrives at XXXXXXX." The train would then wait until the corresponding train passed that location. The wording is probably different with different railroads, but the concept is the same.

So, I was wondering if signals that function EXACTLY like normal signals could be made invisible to mimic operations like this. I know several prototypical routes that I'm planning on creating in KRS that are in "Dark Territory".

Of course, this would require frequent checks on the track monitor to actually see what the next "signal aspect" is. They fuction just like the normal ones, but you can't see them. (Except in the track monitor)

What does everyone else think?

[Dan1]

Trainman - what Alcoted has done on the upgraded Blackfoot route is to bury the signals in the ground. On the track monitor the signals will show up but not as you are driving.

http://frankoburns.proboards46.com/index.cgi?board=Routes&action=display&thread=1192765412

[TrainMan_112]

I was actually thinking along the lines of the TRAINZ invisible signals. They are visible as icons in the route and scenario creator, but vanish in the simulation.

But yes, I suppose sinking them in the ground would work too.

[sniper297]

Gonna make dark territory it oughtta be actually dark, no signals at all. Scenario editor isn't finished yet (at least I HOPE they're still working on it) but one odd thing I found, if an AI service is designated as "special", all the switches, including manual switches, on that service's route are locked and can't be changed until the service has finished the path and been removed. So it's possible to control traffic without signals just by timing (Rich Garber is the master at this, he made a whole bunch of activities with AI traffic on routes with no signals and all manual switches for MSTS), just include instructions for the player to wait at XY junction until the eastbound passes or whatever.

[TrainMan_112]

That's a good point Jim, but it would be very difficult to time things accuratley. I'll be picking up my copy of KRS as soon as it's released, so maybe I can figure out just how things work. Can you display messages in KRS, Jim?

One more thing, is there an option similar to MSTS waiting points in KRS? Otherwise we'd have the player train holding for EVERY AI train.

[sniper297]

Gotta ask Otto about the details, I haven't messed with standard scenarios that much. I have seen "attaboy!" popups when I coupled onto the correct cars in some of the default scenarios, and other popups with briefings and instructions, so there is some way to do it. Accurate timing isn't that important provided fudge factors are incorporated, AI train is due thru the crossover at 9:18, you must clear the crossover by 9:10 at the latest or wait until he passes, that sort of thing. Remember railroads came first, signals later, badge of office for a railroad conductor used to be a big gaudy pocket watch. "Emperor of the North" is a good movie for that, showing a "running against the clock" scenario where they nearly collided with the opposing train on an unsignalled line.

Earliest signals were flags, lanterns, whistles, and a canvas ball stuffed with straw, hung from a post and beam like a gallows, on a rope. Train A passes the station, the stationmaster unties the rope and lowers the ball. Train B don't see the ball he knows he has to stop. After a certain amount of time the stationmaster hoists the ball back up again, train B sees the "high ball" and knows he can go full tilt boogie. That's where the expression "highball" for full speed ahead originally came from. Later the telegraph was invented and they relied less on time, train A passes station B and the stationmaster (or more likely an apprentice boy) hauls down the ball, taps on the telegraph to let station A know it's okay to raise his ball. Train A passes station C, stationmaster at C hauls down his ball, telegraphs to stationmaster at B who then raises his ball, and on it goes until electric signals were invented. Interestingly enough the stuffed ball on a rope was a failsafe device, if the rope broke and the ball fell down that was a stop indication. :cool:

[djt1]

Gonna make dark territory it oughtta be actually dark, no signals at all.

The territory that TrainMan_112 is describing is dark as far as the traffic control system is concerned; non-CTC is another way of describing it. Even though there are physical block signals the rail traffic controller (train dispatcher) still can only control the traffic via verbal permission in the form of a track warrant.

DTC with ABS is common in the US. The signals in this territory only convey block condition information to the crew, they do not authorize movement.

[TrainMan_112]

The "timing" system sounds great, providing we have the tools required to make it work. The KRS scenario editor would require a message system, similar to "Display Messge" event in MSTS. The player would also need to keep close watch on the map, to know where trains are at all times. I think a system like this would work perfectly.

[djt1]

The "timing" system sounds great, providing we have the tools required to make it work.

Too bad there isn’t some other more realistic way of doing it.