Developer Tools and US version

[ozinoz]

Hi guys...

I have just had confirmed by Derek from RS posted in the UK forum, that the Developer Tools available from Rail Sim ARE NOT compatible with the US version being released this week. This will mean not being able to create scenario's / routes etc until the version 1 upgrade is released.

"The dev tools do not ship with the retail version of the game.
There are reasons of this which have been covered many times on the forums so I do not feel the need to explain them once more.
But to get the tools you have to sign up to the agreement.

Further more, the dev tools currently up on the Rail Simulator website will not work with the NA version of the game.

There are a few reasons for this, but mainly because the versions of Euro/NA and tools are out of synch.
For each version of the game, code had to be frozen to allow the builds to be submitted and accepted, however all the while bugs/enhancements were being made off line that have since been introduced back into the live branch.

The plan is to bring everything together with the RS_Upgrade Mk1 and a new set of tools compatible with both versions which will be released soon.

We will update everyone with a news story on the Rail Simulator website this week.

regards

Derek"

No idea what damage might be done to your installation if you do try and run those tools, so probably better off not. (glad I asked, had planned to download today in preparation :) )

Cheers...

(mods, given the importance, maybe this could be anchored?)

[TrainMan_112]

Lol... pathetic. I wish they would really get their act together and maybe, just maybe make sure everything is compatible BEFORE release? Or, wait, wait I have an even better idea.
Hold back the release a few months, make an attempt (pitifull is better than nothing) to fix some of the KNOWN issues and then release all of the content AT ONCE!!!!!


But, thanks for this "spirit enlightening" update.

[moose49]

So let me get this straight I've obtained a copy of the Euro version downloaded the tools that work for it but they won't work for the US version. Does this also mean that I can't merge the two versions of RS? This is turning into one big FUBAR deal to my way of thinking. Hey RSD get your heads out of your arses I've bought one version of your game wasn't impressed but thougth I might by the US version anyway now you say I've got to download a second set of tools and or wait for a one size fits all super patch then down load that? What is this just a large scale pay to partisipate beta test?:eek:

[OTTODAD]

The last I heard from a reliable source is that the US route should be available as a paid for Add-ON to users of the European version, but if what Derek states is a fact then I don't think that this will be possible ! :(

O t t o

[moose49]

The last I heard from a reliable source is that the US route should be available as a paid for Add-ON to users of the European version, but if what Derek states is a fact then I don't think that this will be possible ! :(

O t t o

Thanks Otto I had heard that also but it doesn't look like it's gonna happen that way. Seems like RSDLtd is determined to shoot there own foot no matter what.:rolleyes:

[djt1]

I've got to download a second set of tools and or wait for a one size fits all super patch then down load that? What is this just a large scale pay to partisipate beta test?:eek:

You must get out more often and see what’s going on with the rest of the games out there if you think this is so special?

[sniper297]

Yeah, except for train simulators I generally wait at least six months to a year before buying any new game just because the standard has become "ship it, we'll patch it later maybe". :mad: Only reason I jump in early with trainsims is because I'm certifiable about trains. :o Haven't bought flightsim X yet, they ever get that debugged?

Anyway it is down to wait and see, even if the merge patch isn't ready soon there will be a way to combine the US and Euro versions, just a matter of copying route and assets files here and there. Even if the executable is different and the dev tools are different, nothing to stop you from copying the york & newcastle route into the US version to run all five. Assuming you're interested in default routes to begin with, all I want is the USA trains, you can keep the Cajon Pass or send it to California, ship the four European routes to Siberia.

"The dev tools do not ship with the retail version of the game.
There are reasons of this which have been covered many times on the forums so I do not feel the need to explain them once more.
But to get the tools you have to sign up to the agreement."

Hmmm, got a link? I've never seen it explained fully, especially why we got a full featured world editor but a "lite" version of the scenario editor, or was including the full world editor without having the end user sign an agreement a mistake? :rolleyes:

[TrainMan_112]

They've got an above-average product to deal with here, now if they would just lighten up and support it properly....

[djt1]

you can keep the Cajon Pass or send it to California:rolleyes:

Come on now, maybe we can get Marc to do some sort of route enhancement on it (a proto remake), some spiffy new Joshua trees, ScaleRail and she’ll be good to go.

[TrainMan_112]

Isn't the route already proto?

[moose49]

Thanks Jim I Know that seems to be the new my High School graduate can't read or write the school board needs $250,000.00 for a remedial program standard. But I'm nuts about trains and keep hoping that some developer gets it right the first time just one time. So I B++++, moan and complain cause thats what the greedy lazy buggers deserve.;) Seems kinda strange that the smaller pay ware outfits can sell stuff thats good right out of the box and patch it quickly if needed, But the large one can't and takes forever to patch it oh well guess we've stepped into another dimension train sim where everthing is a little off.:eek:

[djt1]

Isn't the route already proto?

You tell me, just look through the posts about the screen shots; it looks like more than few have already found nuts and bolts out of place.

[TrainMan_112]

Dunno, other than a few people pouting because the power poles were a few inches thicker than they are in real life, everything with ROUTE appears ok. If you gave the KRS platform to a developer who knew what they were doing, they would have had this thing patched up in no time. Believe me, this is NOTHING compared to other games I've seen. But, Kuju decides to do almost nothing about it.

[sniper297]

And a "joshua tree" ain't a real tree either, that's one of them sissy plants little old ladies keep in pots for their pekingese (that ain't a real dog either!) to pee on. :p I dunno, prototype or not desert routes never turned me on, me likum big green mountains with tall pine trees and big city railroading. :D

Moose, it's weird, the outrageous success of the non copy protected tightly coded well tested try-before-you-buy DOOM game 20 years ago showed everyone the way, but the yuppie MBAs got involved and they create disaster for everyone but themselves everywhere they go. :mad: Bought a brand new TV and a brand new washer in 2005, neither one works now. Same thing with computer hardware and software, screw quality and reputation, grab the money and run. I bought MSTS in June of 2001, so I was in on the early days of that, this is nowhere NEAR as bad. Brakes wouldn't release when you coupled on with the front coupler of the engine, so after waiting 8 months they released a patch that allowed the brakes to release when the front coupler engaged, but crashed the program about half the time you used the front coupler. Took four more years and an amateur hacker in a third world country to actually FIX the damn thing, the people who wrote the original code either couldn't or wouldn't. That's as bad as it gets, altho I've seen other stuff over the last 20 years or so that was nearly as bad. Not likely you'll ever see a perfect trainsim, it's a niche market and there just isn't that much competition.

[djt1]

“Believe me, this is NOTHING compared to other games I've seen.”

You’re absolutely right, compared to some games I’ve bought in the last year KRS is polished.



“I dunno, prototype or not desert routes never turned me on, me likum big green mountains with tall pine trees and big city railroading.”

I guess I’m attracted to the opposite of where I’ve worked and lived that’s why I like that Mojave stuff. Seeing or running trains up and down 3% grades is pretty impressive to say the least.

[jivebunny]

It's incredible what some people will moan about. Do those of you who are complaining even know what you're complaining about?

- The US version of RS has had code improvements and is therefore not compatible with the old DevTool package. It will instead be compatible with the new DevTool package. Where is the problem? Is there a reason you want to use the old (buggy) package?

- In order to download the DevTool package and become a Rail Sim developer, you must first register your details at railsimulator.com and accept the agreement. This is the same for the EU and US versions of RS and is for reasons which have been explained many times before. Neither version ships with the DevTools included. Again, where is the problem? The way I see it, a system like this helps to limit the amount of poor-quality, half-hearted content by ensuring that the only people developing third-party content for RS are those who are at least semi-serious serious about it. Surely this can only be a good thing?

- A patch is on its way and will be available two or three weeks after the US release date. Over here in Europe we've had to wait three months. Again, where is the problem? The sim works fine without the patch and is perfectly playable, I think the way RSDL are referring to the patch as an "upgrade" is probably quite an accurate way of describing it.

All this seems like a fairly good deal to me when you look at the support Microsoft offered for MSTS.

Just my 2p!

JB

[moose49]

Yes I know what I'm complaining about bought the Euro version downloaded tools good deal so far now if I buy the NA version the tools are no good for it so I have to down load new tools for it. Then later on down load super-mega patch to make it all work together. Just a crappy way of doing business. Make it right the first time before you sell it then you don't have to go through all this crap.:eek:

[djt1]

“Make it right the first time before you sell it then you don't have to go through all this crap.”

What’s the crap? Hitting a download button then an executable?

Look at what staring at DirectX 7 graphics over the last seven years has done!

[sniper297]

Got more than two cents worth in here already, but what the hell.

"In order to download the DevTool package and become a Rail Sim developer, you must first register your details at railsimulator.com and accept the agreement. This is the same for the EU and US versions of RS and is for reasons which have been explained many times before. Neither version ships with the DevTools included. Again, where is the problem? The way I see it, a system like this helps to limit the amount of poor-quality, half-hearted content by ensuring that the only people developing third-party content for RS are those who are at least semi-serious serious about it. Surely this can only be a good thing?"

Pray tell if that was their intent, what restricts poor quality half hearted route development? "for reasons which have been explained many times before", got a link? Don't remember ever seeing their reasons.

Moose;

"Make it right the first time before you sell it then you don't have to go through all this crap"

Trouble with that is the Daikatana factor, by the time it's perfect it's obsolete. Daikatana was a game that was three years past due date and everyone thought it was vaporware, when it finally hit the shelves it wouldn't run on Windows 98 and had really cruddy graphics compared to the newer rushed-out-the-door competition. I'll see if I can hunt up a fifty year old bottle of Dr Pepper to give you an idea. :D Worst in my memory, the first two in Bethesda's Elder Scrolls series, Arena and Daggerfall both pushed the envelope of what computers were capable of at the time, wouldn't run very well on most systems even with the recommended specs. What they did do right was listening to the community and issued patches frequently until most were satisfied, and improved the out-the-door versions for Morrowind and Oblivion so they didn't need as much patching.

RSDL is listening and patching NOW, can't ask much more of them than that even if it means more downloading. I have several problems with the way this game was designed, but what they did already is history, what they're gonna do now is the important thing. :cool:

[jivebunny]

Pray tell if that was their intent, what restricts poor quality half hearted route development? "for reasons which have been explained many times before", got a link? Don't remember ever seeing their reasons.

Hehe, I know this wasn't their intent but it might work out that way. Who knows? :)


RSDL is listening and patching NOW, can't ask much more of them than that even if it means more downloading. I have several problems with the way this game was designed, but what they did already is history, what they're gonna do now is the important thing. :cool:

Totally agree, even by the standards of the entire gaming industry RSDL are doing a very good job listening to us, asking us for our views and providing both a patch and regular new content. They put the other railway simulation giants to shame IMO..

JB

[rudder]

In the last few weeks I have read all of the pro's and con's ( allso personal insults ) about RS. I am only interested in building routes' so I DL. the dev tools, I could study them a bit in prep. for the game this week. Am I now hearing that this will not do me any good to buy the game, Other than to see what goes on with it.




( it's the simple things that confuse us )

[Capt_Scarlet]

In the last few weeks I have read all of the pro's and con's ( allso personal insults ) about RS. I am only interested in building routes' so I DL. the dev tools, I could study them a bit in prep. for the game this week. Am I now hearing that this will not do me any good to buy the game, Other than to see what goes on with it.


( it's the simple things that confuse us )

I think that its the docs ( that can be downloaded as part of the tools ) that would be the most useful until the patch and US compatible tools are released.

John

[jivebunny]

Yep, the docs are what you need. If you don't have the sim then the dev tools on their own are pretty much useless.

JB

[RSDLadam]

I will make a response to many of the queries in here as soon as I can. Discussion is moving so quickly though it can be hard to keep up with everything else im doing.

If you gave the KRS platform to a developer who knew what they were doing, they would have had this thing patched up in no time. Believe me, this is NOTHING compared to other games I've seen. But, Kuju decides to do almost nothing about it.

Just thought I would say that Kuju WILL do nothing about issues in Rail Simulator, because they arent working on it anymore. We at RSDL are the ones working on fixes, new features, and extra content as we have done since before the European release last October.

[TrainMan_112]

Well I meant RSD, whoever's doing the work these days. I just don't see why it couldn't be released AT ONCE. Instead, you've created trouble for yourself by having all of these "compatabilit" issues and thus delaying things even further.

[rgarber]

Just thought I would say that Kuju WILL do nothing about issues in Rail Simulator, because they arent working on it anymore. We at RSDL are the ones working on fixes, new features, and extra content as we have done since before the European release last October.

How is it that this one company (kuju) keeps making train games and then somebody else has to support it? :confused:

Okay, so I apparently I missed the memo, who is RSDL and what happened to Kuju (not that I see that as a great loss or anything...)? Point me to a thread, a website, don't matter. I just didn't know about this.

[GerJan]

Rail Simulator Development Ltd (RSDL)

[landnrailroader]

Yeah, except for train simulators I generally wait at least six months to a year before buying any new game just because the standard has become "ship it, we'll patch it later maybe". :mad: Only reason I jump in early with trainsims is because I'm certifiable about trains. :o Haven't bought flightsim X yet, they ever get that debugged?

Anyway it is down to wait and see, even if the merge patch isn't ready soon there will be a way to combine the US and Euro versions, just a matter of copying route and assets files here and there. Even if the executable is different and the dev tools are different, nothing to stop you from copying the york & newcastle route into the US version to run all five. Assuming you're interested in default routes to begin with, all I want is the USA trains, you can keep the Cajon Pass or send it to California, ship the four European routes to Siberia.

"The dev tools do not ship with the retail version of the game.
There are reasons of this which have been covered many times on the forums so I do not feel the need to explain them once more.
But to get the tools you have to sign up to the agreement."

Hmmm, got a link? I've never seen it explained fully, especially why we got a full featured world editor but a "lite" version of the scenario editor, or was including the full world editor without having the end user sign an agreement a mistake? :rolleyes:


I have FS-X, purchased two weeks ago from Walmart. Works fine except that I had some problems getting it to work with my 10 year old pedals and yoke, but finally found usable drivers for CH products on -XP. However, with CompUsa going out of business I picked up a nice USB-2 joystick for less than $20 US and it works better with that. Caveat - the beast comes on TWO DVDs, and takes over an hour to install. It is also very slow to bootup when started, but I have not discovered any glitches.

Jerry Sullivan
aka landnrailroader

[seaboardairline]

Many of us have no interest in the Developer Tools and don't plan on building routes. I am one of those and the simulator works just fine without the 'Tools!

I've had MSTS for years and never built a route and even painted an engine, but I had a lot of fun running that game as I am sure RS will give me the same enjoyment.

[jp 4712]

's no big deal. As I understand it the NA release is a very slightly later build than the Euro version. Wait two or three weeks and the patches will bring the build for both up to the same level. What was the problem again?

[sniper297]

"Rail Simulator Development Ltd (RSDL)", thanks, GerJan, been wondering what "RSDL" stood for. Now I got the "LTD" part to figure out, I know that's one of them things you often see attached to British companies. :confused: Was gonna suggest to Adam that he change his screen name but I see he just did that. :D

Rudder;

"I am only interested in building routes' so I DL. the dev tools, I could study them a bit in prep. for the game this week. Am I now hearing that this will not do me any good to buy the game, Other than to see what goes on with it."

That's the confusing part, if you want to create a standard scenario you need to download the dev tools since the scenario editor that comes with the game is not a full featured editor, but to create a route you don't need the dev tools since the game DOES include a full featured route editor. :rolleyes: If you're only interested in building routes then you don't need any version of the dev tools.

[keber]

Now I got the "LTD" part to figure out, I know that's one of them things you often see attached to British companies. :confused:

LimiTeD.

[moose49]

:)
Ok guys and girls a friend took the time to explain the world of software to me. All I can say is wow what and alien concept to me rush it out the door and fix it later. Having owned my own heavy hauling and rigging company for many years now retired this just wasn't the way we did things. Anyway hope I haven't offended anyone and have a great day.

[seaboardairline]

:)
Ok guys and girls a friend took the time to explain the world of software to me. All I can say is wow what and alien concept to me rush it out the door and fix it later. Having owned my own heavy hauling and rigging company for many years now retired this just wasn't the way we did things. Anyway hope I haven't offended anyone and have a great day.

One of the all time biggest offenders is Microsoft! They, as a rule release software they either know is full of bugs or they hope its not full of bugs!

[ozinoz]

Hi guys...
Just thought I might jump into my own thread :)

My understanding is (and this is probably wrong), is that you need the Dev tools to install packaged external content (ie, routes, scenarios rolling stock etc). I am hoping I am, wrong, cos I have no interest in route building per se, but do want to be able to install other scenarios (or indeed create my own).

I am also a little disappointed in brand new software almost immediately needing an upgrade. Not everybody has internet access (we are stuck with a 28.8 dial up at home and have to make other arrangements, and I am certain we are not alone). What is the route / rolling stock download size likely of the respective missing routes - York / Cajon - I imagine up around 1 gig ~ that is a hefty download. While RSDL are absolutely to be commended, it is just a little disappointing it is needed to this extent.

Still, looking forward the its release tomorrow (and then another 2 week wait) - now just need some US steam...

Cheers

[Capt_Scarlet]

Hi guys...
Just thought I might jump into my own thread :)

My understanding is (and this is probably wrong), is that you need the Dev tools to install packaged external content (ie, routes, scenarios rolling stock etc). I am hoping I am, wrong, cos I have no interest in route building per se, but do want to be able to install other scenarios (or indeed create my own).

What is the route / rolling stock download size likely of the respective missing routes - York / Cajon - I imagine up around 1 gig ~ that is a hefty download. While RSDL are absolutely to be commended, it is just a little disappointing it is needed to this extent.


Cheers

I think that if you install one of the locos from the RSDL site it will include the package manager which allows you to install or uninstall additional content, so you wouldn't need the full dev tools ( 32 MB and 9MB for the docs ) to do that. I am not sure what size a route is but they aren't that big. The largest route in the Euro version not including content ( it is stored separately ) is 233MB. If you want to create your own scenarios then will need the dev tools as it adds the extra functionality

John

[sniper297]

Right, the dev tools includes a redistributable executable for unpacking the RPK file and installing it, most of the ones I've seen done by third parties don't include it. Download any addon, official or unofficial that does have it, and it will install a package manager and assorted utilities for unpacking and installing RPK files (actually a zipfile with a different extension, but includes an XML file to append code to the routes.xml file and scenarios.bin files, don't get me started on that), so to install addons that use the official packager you don't need the dev tools. For Mike Simpson's unofficial installer (which I'm still using due to the problem with cloning default stuff and packaging it) you don't need dev tools either, just doubleclick on the routesetup.exe, and most addons use one or the other.

Unless you intend to make custom trains or objects or create standard scenarios you have no use for the dev tools, so it's really not an issue for the casual user. Not an issue for route developers either unless they intend to also create standard scenarios for their routes, but since the free roam scenarios allow loose consists and multiple player services I haven't really bothered with the standard scenarios anyway. I do HAVE the dev tools, but never really found much use for them. :rolleyes:

[TrainMan_112]

So here's the situation, as I understand it?

The US Release of RS will continue as planned? EXCEPT, the DEVTOOLS that are currently available are not compatible with the US Release? RSDL will then release an update for the DEVTOOLS which will allow them to be used fully with the US Release?

This pretty stupid, but it's not the end of the world I suppose. I'll never understand Kuju/RSDL's thinking. They've probably shot themselves so many times in the foot now the damage in sales is irreversable. For me, the DEVTOOLS are necessary.

[sniper297]

One of them marketing decisions, which allegedly is a science but like any other business decision is a gamble. If they were still holding onto it and hadn't released it yet they'd be getting flamed for vaporware by now, so I think the release time was about right. As for selling the fifth route, we'll see. Two versions with four routes each, yuppie MBA decides to sell the additional route instead of giving it away. Dunno how much yet, hypothetically let's say it's $10 bucks. 100 people who would have bought it for forty bucks if it included all five routes get pissed and decide they ain't gonna buy it at all, loss of $4,000 dollars. 1000 people decide $10 bucks for the fifth route is a good deal, gain of $10,000, total gross profit from decision, $6,000 smackers. Could easily go the other way too, 100 people decide it's a good deal, $1000 gain, 1000 people decide they're gonna wait for MSTS X, $40,000 loss, total $39,000 in lost sales. And since not every one of the people who decide not to buy due to that marketing decision are gonna say so (in fact about half won't even be aware of the actual reason they decided not to buy), the MBAs never really know for sure exactly how the dice turned up after they rolled. :confused: Unless it's an overwhelming success or complete disaster it's impossible to critique ANY business decision since you really never know how it would have turned out if you had gone the other way.

[RSderek]

Hi all, my second post here,

I know you have opinions and in some cases valid, but hopefully I will be able to at least seperate fact from fiction.

Although it is not ideal that the NA users have to wait for the dev tool, from our point of view it is very important that everyone has the same version to avoid conflict.

One thing I can say is that Rail Simulator is supported, and supported well.
Those of you that click on our website see that new content and news is added all the time. Adam and I support a number of different forums ad well as our own.

I look forward to chatting to you all.

best regards

Derek

[OTTODAD]

Downloading the RSDevTools doesn't cost a thing and sooner or later you are going to need them to create fully functional Scenarios with.

In fact, loading RS with it's RailSimEditor.exe you do not need to run the RailSim.exe at all, which is what I have been doing since installing the tools, which saves me wasting time having to change from one to the other in order to work an Scenarios ! ;)

Take care, O t t o.

[Dan1]

So here's the situation, as I understand it?

The US Release of RS will continue as planned? EXCEPT, the DEVTOOLS that are currently available are not compatible with the US Release? RSDL will then release an update for the DEVTOOLS which will allow them to be used fully with the US Release?

This pretty stupid, but it's not the end of the world I suppose. I'll never understand Kuju/RSDL's thinking. They've probably shot themselves so many times in the foot now the damage in sales is irreversable. For me, the DEVTOOLS are necessary.

Not really. Would you rather they had released Devtools that didn't work? No obviously not. I am pretty sure that sales won't be hit because the devtools are released 3 weeks after the event.

[jivebunny]

The month-long wait for the dev tools over here didn't seem to affect the enthusiasm for RS, I'm not sure why it would in the US. They could always push the release back until the new dev tools are ready, I'm sure that would make lots of people happy...

[trackman44]

All I have to say is that RSDL are doing a great job in supporting KRS. They listen and respond through out the forums as needed and as practicable. One things for sure, I believe that the MSTS and Trainz followers are going to take notice of this wonderful (and exciting, i must say) simulator to the point that they will be converted and follow this new simulator to the grave! At least i think so! Keep up the good work Adam and Derek. One day you will have millions of followers, and they will worship the ground that you guys walk on and pray to you every day!
Amen!

trackman44:)

[RSderek]

Thank youy track man, I'm scared now...
:)

Just to let you know, not sure if Adam has informed you that you can get the package manager from ourwebsite that does work with the NA version.

http://www.railsimulator.com/en/downloads/rail-simulator-content

(You have to be signed up/logged in (which is free) to get access)

This allows you to unpackage rpk files. We have a selection of them on our website or if you search UKTS you will fine a whole lot more.

http://www.uktrainsim.com/

best regards

Derek