SignalMesster

[sniper297]

Well, still trying to sort out US signals here, this is what I got so far.

http://forums.flightsim.com/vbts/attachment.php?attachmentid=2187&stc=1&d=1205026892

Trailing point interlocking, place the first (zero) link next to the signal, then the next (1) beyond the switch, if the link is interrupted by the switch thrown against the signal is red. The 1H 0T seems to be an ABS (interval) signal but early experiments with that it stays green when the player train is in the block it's supposed to protect, possibly I'm using it wrong. 1H 1T does show block occupancy by the player train.


http://forums.flightsim.com/vbts/attachment.php?attachmentid=2188&stc=1&d=1205026899

Home signal type thingamy on the facing points, link zero next to it, link one on the track beyond the switch you're designating as "main", link two to whichever you want to be the diverge. This shows red over green or green over red depending on which way the switch is set, or red over red if the track the switch is set for is occupied.

On to the weird stuff, got five pics for that so gotta make another post.

[sniper297]

http://forums.flightsim.com/vbts/attachment.php?attachmentid=2189&stc=1&d=1205027613

After successfully signaling a few junctions including a wye, came to this one and get flashing red instead of green for either track;

http://forums.flightsim.com/vbts/attachment.php?attachmentid=2190&stc=1&d=1205027620

And flashing red over red or red over flashing red on the facing point side. :confused:

http://forums.flightsim.com/vbts/attachment.php?attachmentid=2191&stc=1&d=1205027627

What's different is the speed limit, previous had mainline speeds, this track has yard speeds with 15/0 mph, so the flashing red aspect is actually correct here.

http://forums.flightsim.com/vbts/attachment.php?attachmentid=2192&stc=1&d=1205027633

Don't want flashing red tho, so I use the selection tool to select the tracks and type in higher speed limits. Save and exit the editor, still flashing red.

This is where it's easy to get confused - to enter the world editor you need to go into the route first, can't get into the route without being IN A SCENARIO. Even if you got there by clicking the free play button, that IS a scenario, so when you're editing you're currently in a scenario. To get some changes to "take" you need to restart the scenario so it reloads what you changed. So exit all the way back to the routes selection screen, then reselect the route and scenario (or free play) to see what the actual effect your changes had on the signal indications.

http://forums.flightsim.com/vbts/attachment.php?attachmentid=2193&stc=1&d=1205027640

Ah, that's better!

Still trying to sort out another one, how do you signal diamond crossings? Anybody knows, speak up, don't be shy.

[Signalmaster]

Hey, Jim!

Sorry I haven't been around. Been swamped with non-sim matters to consume my time.

I don't think the bug where a signal recognizes the presence of a consist or even an AI train has been fixed. Didn't think I'd see the day I wished I had the simple (by comparison) MSTS signal scripts to play with here.

The setups you show are generally right.

Has anyone found that the signals actually stop trains, either player or AI? Or a penalty suffered if you go through one?

Part of the indication problem at switches is the use of western signal rules. In a trailing point junction, both legs will show G/R if clear.

Hank

[sniper297]

Heya Hank! What did you do, break the other hip? :eek: Yeah, I was thinking about that for interlocking, use a two head for the trailing points with the second link at the far end of the single track section, but for that the whole thing would need to be redone similar to the MSTS PO&N track style.

http://forums.flightsim.com/vbts/showthread.php?t=239517

I was hoping to avoid that here, altho to hide the way AI trains appear and disappear I need dedicated "spawning sections" to put the portals on anyway, and since the path control is such a ridiculous crapshoot at the moment;

http://forums.flightsim.com/vbts/showthread.php?t=268384

I either have to accept simplified patterns in limited areas or use a complicated series of shorter paths to get the same effect. Out of the frying pan and into the fire here. :mad:

http://forums.flightsim.com/vbts/attachment.php?attachmentid=2218&stc=1&d=1205112000

On this one, all signals on the single cross track are red, and the left and right doubletracks show green or yellow (correct indications for the signals beyond) until I approach with the player on the single track. When I set the player path these two both go red and the ones for the crosstrack clear. Drive the player train thru the diamond crossings;

http://forums.flightsim.com/vbts/attachment.php?attachmentid=2219&stc=1&d=1205112006

One track clears and the other doesn't, left signal should be green at this point. Park that engine and change to a different one (this is all in free roam on a test route) and the indications change again. I think I AM linking them right according to the UKtrainsim thread;

http://forums.uktrainsim.com/viewtopic.php?f=278&t=80794

AndiS reply in that one, substituting the US 1H 1T signals for the UK lattice thingamys he's talking about is what I did here. Most likely I need to figure out how to isolate the diamond crossing from everything else with other signals, when I started doing that on PO&N US 3 is where I ran into the 1H 0T signals staying green with the player train passing in either direction on the approach tracks. :rolleyes:

[Signalmaster]

Part of the problem with this system is depends on signals sending messages to each other. It's a method I just haven't been able to wrap my head around yet. The MSTS system was kept simple with much of this stuff hard coded into the sim.

The US route has a dummy signal which truncates the message path at interlockings to further complicate matters. Some messages don't need to go beyond the home signal. This is still another facet of this mess I need to study. The message truncation signal looks like a signal without a head.

Hank

[sniper297]

Hee-hee, saw that "pass blocker" headless signal post, thought it was for a "Legend of Sleepy Hollow" route or something. :rolleyes: Well, those don't actually do anything near as I can tell, just now tried to use them for isolation of the diamond and the signals do the exact same thing with or without the Headless Horsemen. Put two facing opposite directions on each lead in track since I wasn't sure which way they worked but they really don't seem to do anything.
Here's what I'm fiddling with;

http://forums.flightsim.com/vbts/attachment.php?attachmentid=2252&stc=1&d=1205192917

Huff Refinery on PO&N US 2, I would like to have an AI train or two scoot by on the southwest main (due to this idiotic automatic pathing they're reluctant to go that way to begin with), and have added enough junction signals to isolate the yard from the northeast main, but then what to do with the crossing diamonds? I don't want to fill the yard area with signals, but somehow that crossing track has to be signaled and isolated from the rest of the yard.

[Signalmaster]

Do you think you will go back to the original PON paradigm where you keep AI trains on their own tracks except for a few short stretches?

Hank

[sniper297]

Only if I have to, I was hoping to avoid all that. Probably gonna need to trash the whole thing and start over to optimize the trackplan for it anyway. :mad:

[sniper297]

"Has anyone found that the signals actually stop trains, either player or AI? Or a penalty suffered if you go through one?"

Haven't looked at whether it will stop an AI yet, having too much trouble just getting the AI to run without introducing player interference into the stew. :mad: As for the penalty, I think it keeps track of that sort of thing, but no "game over" for running a red. Got these AWS and TPWS grid thingamys that trip the brakes on if you use them, but I haven't used any yet. Also there's a "handle off path" for the destinations that gives a really ludicrous countdown timer which gives you 60 seconds to get back on the One True Path before it ends the scenario. Not being an adolescent I'm not intending to use that anyway. :rolleyes: So basically no, there's no problem running the reds or going off path unless you set it up that way.

Currently bogged down in chicken or egg questions, redo the trackplan to get something the AI trains will actually run on, or make a new parallel AI route? Probably easier to do the latter, but with shared trackage got another chicken or egg thing - AI train will probably want a totally clear track, so how long do I need to make the passing sidings? Depends on what the longest train will be, don't know if an AI train will saw by the player if the player train is too long for the passing siding or not. Don't know how long the AI trains or player trains will be yet, but I guess I could just wing it and set the limit at 40 or 50 cars, see how long of a passing siding I need for that. AI trains probably will be restricted to 20-25 cars anyway, same trouble as MSTS with too many trainsets in a scenario tanking the framerates.

[Signalmaster]

BTW, I think 'flashing red' is a restricting signal in most western rules. AFAIK, never used in eastern signal rules, where the restricting aspect is R/Y, R/R/Y or L (Lunar replacing Yellow in more modern installations.)

Regards,
Hank

[sniper297]

Well, the good news is unless you deliberately set it up that way there's no "game over" for running a red, and since the signals are always enabled there's no reason to run a red anyway. Bad news is the AI traffic trains lock the manual switches for their route even if they're not due to spawn for another 30 minutes, which makes "freestyle" combined with actual AI traffic interaction impossible. Want to run from A to C and there's an AI train running from B to D two hours from now, you'd have to sit and wait two hours for that AI train to start and finish. If you enter that block beforehand you'll be stuck exiting at B or D since you can't throw either switch to exit at A or C. Only option left is the really lame one, a separate AI route that never intersects the player route. With that there's no point in even having signals (other than shunt signals for switch position indicators) on the player route. Unless someone comes up with a fix or workaround for this (and I've even tried weird things like STOP AT instructions that have the AI train reversing along its path) that's the best I can do, you'll see moving trains on a different track while switching cars around. I was optimistic about this game from the beginning, but it's rapidly going down the crapper.

[Signalmaster]

Jim

Does the switch free up after the AI train passes the switch or is it frozen until the AI train finishes it's path, even if it's in the next state?

Hank

[sniper297]

Irrelevant, but set for anything other than "special" the switch unlocks behind the AI train when he passes the next signal to clear the block. Doesn't do any good for my purposes, if AI service 1 starts at 10:00, runs the path and reaches the end portal and disappears at 10:30, and I have a second AI service spawning from the same portal and following the same path from 11:00 to 11:30, the first switch will unlock at 11:05 or whatever time the second AI train clears the block. If there's a third one at noon the switch remains locked until that one passes, so with the current programming the MSTS PO&N style activities are impossible. Closest I can come is by using diamond crossings instead of switches, no actual shared track sections, but at least it will give the player some interaction and create an actual purpose for the signals.

http://forums.flightsim.com/vbts/attachment.php?attachmentid=2461&stc=1&d=1205717243

Separate parallel AI route that occasionally crosses over from one side to the other with a diamond. I place a 1H 0T signal (ABS) next to the player track short of the diamond, and instead of connecting the link to the player track I set it on the AI track further back from the crossing diamond. Obviously that won't show up in the track monitor (or a cab aspect repeater if we ever get those) but combined with another block signal on the AI track it effectively makes a block on the AI track that displays occupancy on the misplaced signal heads.

http://forums.flightsim.com/vbts/attachment.php?attachmentid=2462&stc=1&d=1205717249

One drawback is it's misleading, since it's not actually showing the player track it remains green when the player goes thru it.

http://forums.flightsim.com/vbts/attachment.php?attachmentid=2463&stc=1&d=1205717255

When the AI approaches the actual block signal just beyond the trip it changes that one to red, and both the misplaced signals go yellow.

http://forums.flightsim.com/vbts/attachment.php?attachmentid=2464&stc=1&d=1205717261

When it enters the block between the misplaced signal trips, it causes both misplaced signals to go red.

http://forums.flightsim.com/vbts/attachment.php?attachmentid=2465&stc=1&d=1205717267

Player watches AI cross over, when AI clears the block at the opposite end both misplaced signals go yellow, then green again.

Lame, but best I can do unless they fix this. No collision protection for the player, if he enters the crossing and blocks it the AI train will ram him, but it does free up the options.

Curious, how far are you from making a working switch indicator? I was gonna add the three shunt signals to every switch for the next version, but if you have something near release that displays switch point setting using a single object I'll hold off on that.