BNSF may electrify

[USRailFan]

According to latest TRAINS, BNSF are considering electrification in a not-to-distant future:

"We're also launching a study of electrification. The big question is, do we electrify with nuclear, alternative energy, or coal? We need to determine which source makes the most sense. The costs are high up front, but the opportunties in the long run are great. We'd need a tax policy that would be in place for some time to encourage and make this possible"

[BNSFfan]

I knew the railroad's would turn back to electrification.. It was a very dumb thing for the government not to support keeping MILW Road's RMD in shape for future usage of elecric locomotives.

[jtr1962]

Not surprised at all. I read a while back that $2 to $3 per gallon diesel, depending upon traffic, is the point where electrification is cost effective. I think we'll be seeing quite a few class 1 freights electrifying their mainlines in the next decade.

[DCRR1]

"We'd need a tax policy that would be in place for some time to encourage and make this possible"

Sums it all up in a nutshell. If they have to pay total cost, it won't happen. They'll pay $10 a gallon and pass it on. Like every other corp they want to use OPM for their projects. Let them make a loan from Exxon, they can afford it.

John

[rdamurphy]

That's funny. I used to own a real fancy brochure that the BN put out on the possible electrification of the entire railroad. From the 1970's! ROFL!

Robert

[CSX4878]

Out with the Diesel.. In with the more fossil fuels, and crude oil to power the electricity!

Honestly, wouldn't it be cheaper to run on diesel then to have more plants to provide the electricity?
The way I see it. With more power plants, it's just gonna hurt the global system even more then it's already damaged.

[ED_4]

Forget diesels. Or coal. Let's go nuclear powered engines. :eek: We'd see that thing go on for years without refueling. LOL

[rdamurphy]

Remember that movie about the nuclear train?

Robert

[gt3corn]

It's like going to Ethanol! you wouldn't smell the gas!:p who doesn't think gas don't smell good?

[CSX4878]

*raises hand - the smell of gas is not as great as the smell of diesel fuel being burnt by a EMD 645 Engine. ;)

[CRQ5508]

Sounds interesting... I wouldn't mind seeing some electrification of freight routes in the US... If this goes through I just really want to see what the motors will look like. More than likely not like the little-joes....

[BNSFfan]

Probably would be some imported streamlined bull ****.. I'd love it if they went through with the old EMD later electric locomotives, that and GE design em like their AC-DM's dual mode, in an ES44 body.

[jtr1962]

Sounds interesting... I wouldn't mind seeing some electrification of freight routes in the US... If this goes through I just really want to see what the motors will look like. More than likely not like the little-joes....
Probably they would look like ALP-46s but with six axles, extra length, 12,000HP, plus plenty of extra ballast. The beauty of electrics is that it doesn't cost a whole lot more to design one which is 12,000HP as opposed to 6,000HP. And there isn't any real tradeoff for doing so. The transformers and traction motors are a bit heavier but on a freight loco you need the weight regardless.

[USRailFan]

Or maybe an americanized version of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IORE

[CRQ5508]

I was hoping that the GF-6C might be given another chance... Probably the last "North American" looking electric made in the US... since then everything has had a very heavy European influence. As long as they don't look like this :D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:GM10B_1976.jpg

who knows. we'll just have to wait and see if BNSF goes through with this or not.

[pstraten]

Edwin and Robert,

Seems like what we really need are nuclear power plants to generate some electricity for an electrified rail system.

This is one area where France is way ahead of the U.S.

[Vince]

Modern catenary systems, using constant tensioned wires, are low maintenance compared to the junk that is still used today along portions of the NEC.
I was amazed when I saw the systems in Europe when I was stationed in Germany 1964-1966. Simple and easy maintenance said the folks in charge on the Deutche Bundsbahn (sp?) They were a head up on their system thanks to the allied nullification of Nazi transport, which required a complete rebuild of the entire system. (to put it gently) I don't know what they had pre-war. Does anyone know? I do know there were (are?) some pretty strange systems in use. 3 phase?!! How'd they do that??

That, I think, is what caused the railroads to abandon the wires. . . cost of maintaining the system.
IIRC, a lot of the catenary was replaced with constant tension wires along the portion of the NEC from New York City north to Boston because they had terrible problems with wire sag during the hot summer months, causing some rather spectacular (and dangerious) failures.

[Hobart]

I knew the Milwakee Road threw in the towel too early. Some roads were talking about returning to steam in the 70's also, wonder if that option is still on the table.

[gt3corn]

*raises hand - the smell of gas is not as great as the smell of diesel fuel being burnt by a EMD 645 Engine. ;)

Raised!

[USRailFan]

Some roads were talking about returning to steam in the 70's also, wonder if that option is still on the table.

I very much doubt that. In the 70s hardly anyone but the Flower Power guys cared much about the environment, these days everything has to be environmentally friendly.. So steam is out of the question.

[BNSFfan]

Tell that to Steve Sandburg! I talked to him on the Milwaukee Road 261 yesterday..

[NW 2156]

I think steam will return. I personally spend alot of time supporting this in many ways.

Britain still builds brand new steamers all the time. The US dosent because we have all these damn ecobullcrap tree huggers running around. Environmentalism,global warming, and Al Gore are a big pile of steaming cow crap. There is nothing wrong with the planet. The freakin people have the problems.

Steam will be the raining champion of the rails once more!

[USRailFan]

I hear they're gonna bring back Elvis too.

[Traindude]

Of course, this is only a rumour. In other words, it IS NOT official.

However, IMO, being a Northwesterner, I think the return of electrification, courtesy of BNSF, to Washington State would be neat. Especially since MILW abandoned its Pacific extension in the 1970's, THAT put an end to Washingtonian heavy electrics.

If Amtrak and Sound Transit are paying attention, maybe they could purchase additional HHP-8's to haul the Cascades and Sounder, replacing the F59PHI's.

[rdamurphy]

I'm not sure where the electricity would come from, our infrastructure, with no significant upgrades in 20 years, is already showing its age.

Perhaps we could run a trans-Atlantic extension cord to France. I think WalMart sells one made in China!

Robert

[Hawk]

The deiselization of American rail was, for the most part, a con perpetrated for profit, and not the rail companies, and had great negative economic impact on the industry.

Check this link http://hawkdawg.com/rrhist/rrhist.htm and read the article 'Economic results of diesel-electric motive power'. It's a pdf file.
Here's some discussion on the article; http://hawkdawg.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=685

There's also another article that you might find interesting reading; 'The End of Steam in America'.

[cp5513]

Ohh, cool links Hawk. :cool:

This actually justifies GE's corporate thinking during the second world war, they honestly felt that the American railroad system was going to go electric in a big way after hostilities ended. There was evidence to support their beliefs too. This is why they were happy to partner themselves with ALCO for so many years, just supplying the electrical components as they felt diesels were only a stop-gap measure. By 1953-54 when almost complete dieselization had been reached, they finally realized that electrification was no longer in the cards and began their stealth XP-24 project, what later would become the U25B.

[SouthwestChief]

It's an interesting idea, but probably not going to happen anytime soon.

The Santa Fe went through similar "studies" several years ago. The typical results from the study found it costs a bundle in the short term and only pays off in the very long run. At the time it made no economical sense to electrify. Perhaps as fuel prices continue to rise.....nope I just don't see it happening.

One thing I find fascinating, when traveling through Northern AZ, is to drive along one of the few electrified (non light rail) lines in the west...the Black Mesa & Lake Powell Railroad (http://www.trainweb.org/southwestshorts/bmlp.html). You can parallel some of the route on highway 160.

What might happen in the next 20 years or so is the electrification of the Surfliner (formerly San Diegan) line. But with California broke I don't see this happening anytime soon either.

[NorfolkSouthern_37]

they always go thourgh these studies. heck i was just reading a trains magazine issue from 1981, the year i was born, where yup, you guessed it. they are looking into electrifying the lines.

[Traindude]

OK...someone here (I forget who) mentioned there is an issue with the generating stations. It is my assumption that, in order to save a little extra money on the electrified infastructure, whenever possible, BNSF could rely on municipal power when running through major cities and towns, just like municipal water was used during the steam era at terminals at major cities, and build rectifier stations along the line to rectify the municipal power. Then, the only "all-new" generating stations would be those in the "isolated" areas between major cities and towns...

...no wait, that's what ALL electric railroads do! Disregard!

BTW: I heard that ATSF st one point considered electrification during the steam era to address the issue of scarce, poor water. Is this true?

[mestevet]

Modern catenary systems, using constant tensioned wires, are low maintenance compared to the junk that is still used today along portions of the NEC.
That, I think, is what caused the railroads to abandon the wires. . . cost of maintaining the system.
IIRC, a lot of the catenary was replaced with constant tension wires along the portion of the NEC from New York City north to Boston because they had terrible problems with wire sag during the hot summer months, causing some rather spectacular (and dangerious) failures.

The last major electrification abandonment in the US was by Conrail in the early '80's. I think that gets missed a lot because so much of the rest of the PRR & NH system has been taken over by Amtrak and the commuter railroads. Somewhere in my photo file, I have a poor snapshot I took of a line of Blue (Conrail) and Silver & Black (Amtrak) E44s sitting behind Wilmington shops, destined never to turn a wheel for revenue again.

If I recall correctly, the main reasons why Conrail gave up on electified freight was:
1) Maintenance of the aging system (as Vince suggests)
2) Inability to run the electric locomotives outside the electrified zone (for through routing, as diesels can obviously do)
3) High rates imposed by running on the by-then Amtrak owned lines which were necessary to reach final destinations under the wire
4) Uncertainty about the supply of further equipment/acquisition costs for new equipment vs. diesels

So today, great stretches of the former PRR Low Grade line from Enola to Morrisville, PA are abandoned, yet the catenary poles are still there, and in some places even the wires (where it's been too difficult to steal for the scrap value)! The only section where this former freight only line mingled with passenger trackage is between Parkesburg and Thorndale, currently fairly lightly used. I have some photos of a section of the former Low Grade between Thorndale and Glen interlocking (near Frazer, PA), which is almost unrecognizable from the vegetation overgrowth until you see a catenary pole. And yet we hear of bottlenecks on both roughly parallel freight lines of CSX and NS. Seems like a waste of real estate and resources when they keep widening the PA turnpike (I-76). I think in the western section of the former line (between Atglen and the Susquehanna river) it's soon to be turned into a rail-trail.

Too bad they couldn't re-construct and modernize the western sections, cut the old Trenton Cutoff over onto the former Reading tracks to West Trenton, extend the Catenary from "West Trenton" in toward NYC and get an all electric route free of Amtrak (to avoid congestion and the high rates) from Enola to NYC. Of course that's just me dreaming... I'd love to see a GG1 back running under the wires too, probably about as likely to happen.

Steve

[kevarc]

Not all towns have a muni system and even if they did, the power still has to come from somewhere. A lot of the towns with muni systems do NOT have any generating capacity or what they do have is to small to power everything.

To further complicate things, this is not a constant load and would have a very low overall power factor. So whan a train hits the system, they have to ramp it up to meet the demand. Not so easy.

[GCRailways]

I think steam will return. I personally spend alot of time supporting this in many ways.

Britain still builds brand new steamers all the time. The US dosent because we have all these damn ecobullcrap tree huggers running around. Environmentalism,global warming, and Al Gore are a big pile of steaming cow crap. There is nothing wrong with the planet. The freakin people have the problems.

Steam will be the raining champion of the rails once more!

What about the applications of Andre Chapelon (242.A1, France) and L.D. Porta (Class 26, South Africa)? These were engines that defied modernization!

[Vince]

I think steam will return. I personally spend alot of time supporting this in many ways.
Britain still builds brand new steamers all the time. The US dosent because we have all these damn ecobullcrap tree huggers running around. Environmentalism,global warming, and Al Gore are a big pile of steaming cow crap. There is nothing wrong with the planet. The freakin people have the problems. Steam will be the raining champion of the rails once more!

>>" . . . .Britain still builds brand new steamers all the time. . . . "<<

They do? :confused:

I've lately seen an article about some British steam enthusists building a full size REPLICA steamer, all new parts, but this is not intended for scheduled mainline service. Here is a link to the article.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1040538/Really-chuffed-First-size-British-steam-locomotive-50-years-fires-up.html

Could you please provide a reference where steamers are being built for mainline service? Thanks in advance. :)

[TrainMan_112]

I think steam will return. I personally spend alot of time supporting this in many ways.

Britain still builds brand new steamers all the time. The US dosent because we have all these damn ecobullcrap tree huggers running around. Environmentalism,global warming, and Al Gore are a big pile of steaming cow crap. There is nothing wrong with the planet. The freakin people have the problems.

Steam will be the raining champion of the rails once more!

How simple are you? How can steam possibly return? Society is moving AWAY from fossil fuels, not towards them.

And what kind of qualification do you have that allows you to state that greenhouse gasses DO NOT have an effect on the environment?

[Vince]

Steamers with a vengence!!

http://www.trainsarefun.com/lirrphotos/lirrphotos.htm

Scroll down to the photo
LIRR H10s #107 at Mt. Olivet c.1937
Photo: John Reschke, Archive: Dave Keller

Just imagine living in the apartment at the upper right of the photo. :eek:

I just found this entry from my late Mom's diary.
She was attending Cornell University at the time. Her parents lived in Brooklyn;

Sun-Nite-Oct 1932
"Here it is Sunday night, and I've been back in Brooklyn since Tuesday, or rather Mon. night, September 26th.
The train ride down on the day coach was pleasant enough, but uneventful and sooty. Railways are economizing in this year of depression by using soft coal, but the passengers have to afford the luxury of plenty of soap after arriving at their destinations! -- Bob was supposed to meet me at Hoboken but wasn't there so I took the Hudson Tunnel train to Penn Station and then came straight to Brooklyn. . . . ."

The good old days?

[jtr1962]

Just imagine living in the apartment at the upper right of the photo. :eek:
Definitely Tier II emissions compliant! :D

[PatPut99]

I just found this entry from my late Mom's diary.
She was attending Cornell University at the time. Her parents lived in Brooklyn;

Sun-Nite-Oct 1932
"Here it is Sunday night, and I've been back in Brooklyn since Tuesday, or rather Mon. night, September 26th.
The train ride down on the day coach was pleasant enough, but uneventful and sooty. Railways are economizing in this year of depression by using soft coal, but the passengers have to afford the luxury of plenty of soap after arriving at their destinations! -- Bob was supposed to meet me at Hoboken but wasn't there so I took the Hudson Tunnel train to Penn Station and then came straight to Brooklyn. . . . ."

The good old days?
Woo hoo for Cornell! Both my parents work there and I hope to be a future alumni :D

[SD50]

Steam making a comeback? It's a romantic notion, but that's about it. Forget about all the environmental debate, the thing is that steam locomotives are much, much more labor intensive than diesel, or electric for that matter. More things to inspect, more often. The huge need for water as well as fuel. Not just any water, but suitable water, otherwise you need staff and resources to make it suitable. Noboday's ever MU'ed a string of steam locomotives. Then there's the enormous explosive energy in the boiler should it decide to explode, whether through accident or maintenance.

Freight electric? Maybe in more high density corridors. It wouldn't be impossible to electrify more remote or lighter density lines. But as others noted, the infrastructure investment is huge, so you'd need a projected ROI to support it.

[USRailFan]

Actually, it'd make more sense in the mountains, and on heavy-haul lines. Electrics are far more powerful than diesels of similar size. A 105-car coal train that needs two SD70MACs up front, one DPU at rear and three SD60 helpers behind that, may need only two electrics up front, and no helpers, and still be able to run up the hill at higher speed...

[chucksc]

Actually, it'd make more sense in the mountains, and on heavy-haul lines. Electrics are far more powerful than diesels of similar size. A 105-car coal train that needs two SD70MACs up front, one DPU at rear and three SD60 helpers behind that, may need only two electrics up front, and no helpers, and still be able to run up the hill at higher speed...
Ahem - you are forgetting about the tendency of knuckles to break in the middle of long trains due to excessive force being applied to them. That is the primary reason for DPUs which break the stress on the knuckles up into smaller segments...

That being said, having been brought up on thePRR and the NY, NH & H I am all for electric freights

[Rogju]

Think about it, steam is not out of the question, with the new type injection furnaces, and
the new scubbers.
Look at the new techonolgy, used by the coal fired electric plants.
The only problem, I see is the fly ash, produced. Just my opinion.
Roger

Just love The Virginian

[SD50]

I'd agree that modern technology can help, but I think a more likely scenario is that the next "new steam locomotives" will be steam turbine electric plants producing electricity to be used by electric locomotives.

[kevarc]

Think about it, steam is not out of the question, with the new type injection furnaces, and
the new scubbers.
Look at the new techonolgy, used by the coal fired electric plants.
The only problem, I see is the fly ash, produced. Just my opinion.
Roger

Just love The Virginian

Do you even have a CLUE to the size of the equipment for this? Or the maintenance required for it?

[USRailFan]

And how many locos do you think you'd need? A 105 car coal train typically has three locos (two in front, one DPU in back) - all controlled by one engineer. How many steamers do you think the same train would need? Three times as many, perhaps? And each of those would need at least two men to keep operational (engineer and fireman). Not gonna happen, you'll much more likely see the same 105-car train with one electric at each end...