Passing a red light, here we go again

[Kristian]

Actually I hope not.
I posted some time ago about this subject but got no answer, at least not from someone of the development team I was aware of. It was more a political debate, well, sort of, about safe train driving. Too much words were spent on the subject anyway. Not to mention another thread on the msts forum. Let’s skip politics and stick to the facts.
msts had its merits, also its annoyances. The unexpected -game ended- after a red light passing was a prominent one and could well be filed as one of the most silly game endings ever I suspect (not that I am an experienced game player).
I never understood why you are allowed to derail your train at high speed but when you stick your nose behind a red light the game is ended in a rather blunt fashion. What kind of logic is this?
msts bears the name of Microsoft but was developed by Kuju. Whose decision it was to choose for this game ending, at least Kuju bettered their life; in Rail Simulator this problem is solved the way it should be done in the first place. The only fatal errors that end the game are derailments and collisions. Passing a red light (without consent) is a severe but not fatal error, you can still drive your train. Sheer logic.

The question is how a red light passing will be handled in msts-2. Could someone of the development team provide an anwer to this?

[Turbo Bill]

Uh, passing a red absolute or controlled red signal is a game ending deal in the RW too. At best the dispatcher will let you run to the next siding were your pulled from the train and a replacement engineer takes over and your unpaid vacation begins. At worst your told to stop were your at and replaced then and there. If your really lucky you can take the train to the next yard and hang your railroad cap up for the minimum 30 day unpaid suspension. When you pass a red controlled signal the Dispatcher's board lights up alerting him to the infraction. Railroads take running a red very seriously as most train to train collisions occur because someone ran a red. Many a Engineer died on account of someone running a red. I've never considered the game ending penalty for running a red excessive because in the RW it can be game ending for the engineer that makes this mistake.

The game is a simulator which means it is mimicking the real thing. The way MSTS1 handles a red passing infraction is pretty much what happens in the RW.

[stonelance]

It is up to the activity creator to decide whether they want it to end the game, or handle it in some other way, such as ignoring it.

[Driverman2008]

It is up to the activity creator to decide whether they want it to end the game, or handle it in some other way, such as ignoring it.
That's cool.:cool: Now the game won't end on me if I accidentally run a red light!:)

[Kristian]

I am not going to repeat myself, Turbo Bill, I'm sure you mean well, but did you ever see a message popping up in the RW? The msts ending is far from realistic. This is childish. You won't have a good credential in the performance report I'm sure, but who cares, just replay the game. This makes the game more realistic and interesting. A head on collision in case I ignore a read light or the possibility to correct my error is far more educational. No nanny control please!
Stonelance's answer is more comforting, although I hope the guy (no girls I'm sure) that makes the activities delivered with the game will have some sense in this respect. I prefer not to have a déjà vu. As real as it gets applies here as well.

[rdamurphy]

Hmm, looks like a "game ender" to me!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9_g1NuoT6s

But, I do see your point, but I guess my question is: Do you have a problem using the brakes and stopping in time? My suggestion is not to try to do "on the spot stops" and slow down as far as you can with the dynamics, and "sneak up" on the signal at about 5 to 8 mph.

Robert

[Kristian]

I am not an (ex)train driver (I’ve got the impression that there are a lot of them around here) or someone who is primed at signals, timetables, couplers and what you have. I am a rather average trainsim player who is mostly interested in the graphics and the roaring sound of trains passing by (I hope they will model that realistically too). Most of the time I am in a trackside mode watching the train(s) pass by, so I may miss a signal now and then. I am glad they are there, very nice, but don’t pay too much attention to all the details, it remains a virtual world.
The only law I respect here is the Law of Physics. Leaving the station with the doors open, to name another example, is not very correct, but it is not prohibited by the LoP (thus possible in the RW), so why should it be prohibited in a sim. If you don’t want to do that, fine, then don’t. Everyone has his own preferences. It is all about giving the user maximum flexibility in the game (my definition of fun), as I wrote in another post.

A parallel can be made here with a flight simulator. Leaving the runway without permission of ATC is a very serious error (it caused the biggest aircraft crash in history), but the LoP doesn’t prevent you from doing so and if one collides with another aircraft or object somewhere, than thát will end the game, and not the fact that you ignored ATC.
I have no problem using the brakes by the way.

[eaglefan9727]

The only law I respect here is the Law of Physics. Leaving the station with the doors open, to name another example, is not very correct, but it is not prohibited by the LoP (thus possible in the RW), so why should it be prohibited in a sim. If you don’t want to do that, fine, then don’t. Everyone has his own preferences. It is all about giving the user maximum flexibility in the game (my definition of fun), as I wrote in another post.

Here are my 2 cents....

You have a issue with being able to run or not run the red light without the dispatchers approval, But then you state that leaving the doors open while leaving the station is not correct. You cant have it both ways. A train simulator is suppose to be like the real world and not no fantasy sim.

Ill give you another thing that is annoying with the original MSTS. There are a number of people that just likes to cause derailments and post videos of them on youtube. There is even a activity for a derailment in the library that was posted a couple days ago. It gets me and a number of others upset as MSTS wasnt meant for on purpose derailments. It was meant to run trains and not to destroy them with head on collisions.

If you or anyone else wants to play a sim that destroys things. MSTS/TS 2 or any of the other train sims arent what youre looking for. Go buy a racing sim or something else of that nature. I want a train simulator that is like the real world.

[Driverman2008]

Here are my 2 cents....

You have a issue with being able to run or not run the red light without the dispatchers approval, But then you state that leaving the doors open while leaving the station is not correct. You cant have it both ways. A train simulator is suppose to be like the real world and not no fantasy sim.

Ill give you another thing that is annoying with the original MSTS. There are a number of people that just likes to cause derailments and post videos of them on youtube. There is even a activity for a derailment in the library that was posted a couple days ago. It gets me and a number of others upset as MSTS wasnt meant for on purpose derailments. It was meant to run trains and not to destroy them with head on collisions.

If you or anyone else wants to play a sim that destroys things. MSTS/TS 2 or any of the other train sims arent what youre looking for. Go buy a racing sim or something else of that nature. I want a train simulator that is like the real world.
Oh wah wah wah.:( People are wrecking trains in computer games and video games and posting them onto Youtube.:( It's so sad and insulting.:(

Come on, man. Live on the dangerous side (a little bit, not always).:) My god, man, it's just a game.:rolleyes:

And there are the "Destructive Gamers" too. They'll buy anything from auto simulation games to train simulation games just for the sake of smashing things up for crying out loud (that's not me, I'm not that crazy). Remember, Microsoft made Forza Motorsport 2, and the cars they used were licensed and took realistic damage.

[metrarailboy1]

Oh wah wah wah.:( People are wrecking trains in computer games and video games and posting them onto Youtube.:( It's so sad and insulting.:(

Come on, man. Live on the dangerous side (a little bit, not always).:) My god, man, it's just a game.:rolleyes:

I agree its a game get over it nothings perfect ok its a free world if they wanna do that then let them do it. If you reeeeeeeeeeeally dont like the crash act make your own crash free site. Or better yet make your own sim aka GAME know theres my 50cents

[Driverman2008]

I agree its a game get over it nothings perfect ok its a free world if they wanna do that then let them do it. If you reeeeeeeeeeeally dont like the crash act make your own crash free site. Or better yet make your own sim aka GAME know theres my 50cents
Wait, you quoted what I was saying in both positive and negative. Do you support me (with realistic derailments being OK) or with Eaglefan (with him saying that realistic derailments are not OK)?:confused:

[TrainMan_112]

Ok kids, you've had your turn at trying to sound intelligent...

[rdamurphy]

I am not an (ex)train driver (I’ve got the impression that there are a lot of them around here) or someone who is primed at signals, timetables, couplers and what you have. I am a rather average trainsim player who is mostly interested in the graphics and the roaring sound of trains passing by (I hope they will model that realistically too). Most of the time I am in a trackside mode watching the train(s) pass by, so I may miss a signal now and then. I am glad they are there, very nice, but don’t pay too much attention to all the details, it remains a virtual world.

Yeah, I see what you mean. I do that occassionally, also, I get to looking at something, or watching another train, and uh, oh, red. Emergency isn't even going to slow me down before I hit it, oops!

And if you want to watch trains, yeah, well, forget it, you get too distracted. I guess the only thing you can do is leave the track monitor open and keep one eye on it...

I'm curious, someone said you can set an option in AE to not end the activity if you run the red light, where is it?

Robert

[metrarailboy1]

Wait, you quoted what I was saying in both positive and negative. Do you support me (with realistic derailments being OK) or with Eaglefan (with him saying that realistic derailments are not OK)?:confused:

Didnt I say I agree

[eaglefan9727]

Oh wah wah wah.:( People are wrecking trains in computer games and video games and posting them onto Youtube.:( It's so sad and insulting.:(

Come on, man. Live on the dangerous side (a little bit, not always).:) My god, man, it's just a game.:rolleyes:

And there are the "Destructive Gamers" too. They'll buy anything from auto simulation games to train simulation games just for the sake of smashing things up for crying out loud (that's not me, I'm not that crazy). Remember, Microsoft made Forza Motorsport 2, and the cars they used were licensed and took realistic damage.

There is a big diffrence between racing a car and driving a train. Therefore, There is also a diffrence in racing sims and train sims when it comes to games

Crashing is a big part in professional racing and that is why there is no issue in seeing a racing sim video with a crash. I even do some semi-professional racing sim races in a league that I belong to and there are crashes in those events. Its just part of racing in real life and in sim racing, But crashing and derailing a train is not right in real life or in train simming.

I agree its a game get over it nothings perfect ok its a free world if they wanna do that then let them do it. If you reeeeeeeeeeeally dont like the crash act make your own crash free site. Or better yet make your own sim aka GAME know theres my 50cents

Most of the train sim forums frown on people posting shots of derailments or shots of near missess at crossing gates. Im guessing there is quite a number of members from each forum that agree with how I feel about derailments as every time. When someone post a shot of a derailment or near miss in various forums. The thread gets out of hand with people being angry and upset.

On a side note, There is no point in arguing with you two as both of you think you know youre right, But you aint.

[Driverman2008]

Ok kids, you've had your turn at trying to sound intelligent...
Lol, but seriously, I'm a man. That's why I'm "Driverman2008"!;)

Could we please get back on topic? Let's not have anymore threads get locked due to bad language, behavior, and off topic conversations.

[TrainMan_112]

There is a big diffrence between racing a car and driving a train. Therefore, There is also a diffrence in racing sims and train sims when it comes to games

Crashing is a big part in professional racing and that is why there is no issue in seeing a racing sim video with a crash. I even do some semi-professional racing sim races in a league that I belong to and there are crashes in those events. Its just part of racing in real life and in sim racing, But crashing and derailing a train is not right in real life or in train simming.



Most of the train sim forums frown on people posting shots of derailments or shots of near missess at crossing gates. Im guessing there is quite a number of members from each forum that agree with how I feel about derailments as every time. When someone post a shot of a derailment or near miss in various forums. The thread gets out of hand with people being angry and upset.

On a side note, There is no point in arguing with you two as both of you think you know youre right, But you aint.


It's one of those things that are purely subjective. As harsh as it may be, derailments ARE part of railroading.

[Driverman2008]

It's one of those things that are purely subjective. As harsh as it may be, derailments ARE part of railroading.
That's 100% right!:)

[eaglefan9727]

It's one of those things that are purely subjective. As harsh as it may be, derailments ARE part of railroading.

Very true and its a trains crew worst nightmare as well.

[Turbo Bill]

As many of you know, being an ex railroader, I'm kind of a purist when it comes to things involving train operations and I'm OK with that. I also understand those who want to run trains for the fun of doing it. I would like to see a buttons in the Options menu for things like derailments, and passing a red failure event or even disabling the signals altogether. This way everyone can operate their version of the sim the way they want. The point I was really trying to stress was that in the RW it's game over if you do pass a red and the dispatcher catches it, which they always do. I've been within inches of passing a red absolute and it was one of my more sweat inducing moments as an engineer. My conductor actually got off the lead unit while it was still moving, expecting the slack of 120 loads to kick the engines over the insulating joint, so he wouldn't be included in any punishment I would have brought on us.

[TrainMan_112]

Lol, but seriously, I'm a man. That's why I'm "Driverman2008"!;)

Could we please get back on topic? Let's not have anymore threads get locked due to bad language, behavior, and off topic conversations.

I wasn't talking about you. 'Kids' was a typo.

[TrainMan_112]

As many of you know, being an ex railroader, I'm kind of a purist when it comes to things involving train operations and I'm OK with that. I also understand those who want to run trains for the fun of doing it. I would like to see a buttons in the Options menu for things like derailments, and passing a red failure event or even disabling the signals altogether. This way everyone can operate their version of the sim the way they want. The point I was really trying to stress was that in the RW it's game over if you do pass a red and the dispatcher catches it, which they always do. I've been within inches of passing a red absolute and it was one of my more sweat inducing moments as an engineer. My conductor actually got off the lead unit while it was still moving, expecting the slack of 120 loads to kick the engines over the insulating joint, so he wouldn't be included in any punishment I would have brought on us.

Interesting story there Bill, about the conductor hopping off.

Modeling derailments and animating derailments isn't neccessary. We don't need to see a car flip over, dig into the ground, and break apart. I'm not sure, Eaglefan, if that's what you're getting at, or if you simply don't want derailments PERIOD.

[eaglefan9727]

Modeling derailments and animating derailments isn't neccessary. We don't need to see a car flip over, dig into the ground, and break apart. I'm not sure, Eaglefan, if that's what you're getting at, or if you simply don't want derailments PERIOD.

That is what I am talking about as in the original MSTS. Ive seen videos that a car goes flying and a train breaking apart. If there is a derailment in TS2, The game ends right there and then with no footage of the derailment.

[buzzbenz]

That is what I am talking about as in the original MSTS. Ive seen videos that a car goes flying and a train breaking apart. If there is a derailment in TS2, The game ends right there and then with no footage of the derailment.

Why?

Despite what you say earlier, car crashes aren't SUPPOSED to be part of racing. And a LOT of racing games take place on city streets. Should all those games end there too if the damage is bad enough?

Just give the option to turn that off or not (such as they do with the "visible damage" option in MSFS).

And dude, there are SO many more important things to worry about in REAL life, why the heck give yourself the extra stress by worrying about what people do in a COMPUTER game? Seriously, y'all make too big a deal of this.... Just put the option in the new sim to either turn derailment animation off or on, and don't watch any YouTube videos of it if it bugs you that much....

[eaglefan9727]

Despite what you say earlier, car crashes aren't SUPPOSED to be part of racing. And a LOT of racing games take place on city streets. Should all those games end there too if the damage is bad enough?

I agree car crashes arent suppose to happen, But they are a big part of racing. It is very rarely that you can watch a complete race like Daytona, Indy, Long Beach, or Monaco without seeing a crash happen at some point in the race.

As for your comment on alot of racing games taking places on city streets. You must be talking about the Need For Speed racing series instead of something like GTR2 or Rfactor. I wouldnt consider the Need For Speed racing series a true racing sim as they rarely feature some of the real famous tracks in the world such as Indy, Daytona,Long Beach, Spa, Le Mans, Sebring, and Monaco. The Need For Speed racing series and others like that are like a second class of racing sims compared to GTR 2, Rfactor, and a couple others.

And dude, there are SO many more important things to worry about in REAL life, why the heck give yourself the extra stress by worrying about what people do in a COMPUTER game?

I dont have any extra stress by worrying about what people do in a computer game. I just find it annoying and disgraceful as a rail fan of many years.

[metrarailboy1]

Why?

Despite what you say earlier, car crashes aren't SUPPOSED to be part of racing. And a LOT of racing games take place on city streets. Should all those games end there too if the damage is bad enough?

Just give the option to turn that off or not (such as they do with the "visible damage" option in MSFS).

And dude, there are SO many more important things to worry about in REAL life, why the heck give yourself the extra stress by worrying about what people do in a COMPUTER game? Seriously, y'all make too big a deal of this.... Just put the option in the new sim to either turn derailment animation off or on, and don't watch any YouTube videos of it if it bugs you that much....

Dude its a GAME G.A.M.E you go to wal-mart and get in the GAME section if it was a real real sim it wouldn't be available to the public. Get over it happens if you look trainz forums has crash section in there. #%$! happens man I dont like crashing in th game but i highly doubt those kid wont

[metrarailboy1]

Dude its a GAME G.A.M.E you go to wal-mart and get in the GAME section if it was a real real sim it wouldn't be available to the public. Get over it happens if you look trainz forums has crash section in there. #%$! happens man I dont like crashing in th game but i highly doubt those kid wont

Engineers i respect what there doin and we dont need a paragraph on why you do not like people who derail trains that ISNT the subjet and back to the subject. I agree with the signal it is annoying but its just the first step of the process and so you have to get use to stoping and easing to the signal the surfliner route is were i learned.

[metrarailboy1]

[QUOTE=eaglefan9727;1419388]I agree car crashes arent suppose to happen, But they are a big part of racing. It is very rarely that you can watch a complete race like Daytona, Indy, Long Beach, or Monaco without seeing a crash happen at some point in the race.

And derailments they are a big part of railroading so I dont see what your arguement is. It doesnt make sences just think about for a while crashes are not suppose to happen in Nascar but it happens its way of life. But back to the signal subject.

[eaglefan9727]

And derailments they are a big part of railroading so I dont see what your arguement is.

That must be the stupidest comment I have ever read on this forum. You dont see derailments every time a train goes from point A to point B? We would also be hearing about derailments almost everyday if they were a big part of railroading, But we dont here or read about a derailment everyday.

Anyways, The point is that the thing behind a train sim is running a train and getting it from point A to point B safely just like in the real world if you or I were a engineer. If someone wants to destroy something in some kind of PC game. They can get a smash em up derby game or something of that nature in the PC gaming world. It doesnt belong in train simming.

That is probably one of a few reasons why Union Pacific was so againts the release of the original MSTS sim back in 2001 and on that note. I am done with this thread as there is no point in arguing over this anymore.

[djt1]

if you do pass a red and the dispatcher catches it, which they always do.

Bill,

I may be taking this the wrong way but you make it sound like dispatchers are sitting there waiting for a crew to get by a stop indication?

I’ve worked both sides of the fence, in train service and as a train dispatcher. If a train does get by a stop indication the train dispatcher doesn’t have to “catch it”, it’s all recorded on the CTC machine. The exact second you knock the signal down at a control point/interlocking a “beep” goes off and the train will show occupying the control point limits. This happens whether the dispatcher has your route coded in at the control point or not. The days of train dispatchers covering up rule violations are long gone. I was covered by ATD union when I was dispatching which at the time was under the BLE and I sure as hell did not want to see any crews getting taken out of service or worse, killed.

[jamesc25313]

Well instead of comparing it to a racing sim why not compare it to MSFS those planes are not suppose to crash and rarely do (but watch someone say they happen every 20 seconds) and happen a lot less frequentley than derailments but you can crash in MSFS. Can you imagine what that game would be like if you couldnt make your plane go down? If the game wouldnt end if I ran a signal I would be more tempted to run them when I was a having a lazy day :( Signals are part of the game and you have to have consequences for your actions so just as in real life I watch out for signals.

[rdamurphy]

There is a certain "sensitivity" about crashing, as some of you may recall, MSFS was released late in 2001 so they could take out the "crashing into buildings" capability. I also heard there was a picture of a jetliner about to crash into a building on the box art, but I think that was just rumour.

I know OLI put up quite a stink about the cartoon Cars because Lightning McQueen raced a train to a grade crossing, and barely made it.

Robert

[Turbo Bill]

djt1,

You hit the nail on the head my friend. My reference was not to dispatchers sitting around waiting for offenses to happen. By my "they always do" statement, I was referring to the safety measures built into the CTC systems that immediately inform them of a train beyond their authority by signal indication. You are correct, the days of bending rules are long gone. Thank you for clearly translating my true meaning.

[djt1]

djt1,

You hit the nail on the head my friend. My reference was not to dispatchers sitting around waiting for offenses to happen. By my "they always do" statement, I was referring to the safety measures built into the CTC systems that immediately inform them of a train beyond their authority by signal indication. You are correct, the days of bending rules are long gone. Thank you for clearly translating my true meaning.


Got it, I misunderstood what you where saying.

[djt1]

I even do some semi-professional racing sim races in a league that I belong to and there are crashes in those events.

eaglefan9727,

I don’t mean to get off the subject here but you mentioned racing sims and I was wondering if you’ve been invited to the iRacing beta yet? I’ve been into GTR2 and r-Factor for a while now but after trying iRacing the rest of my racing sims are now collecting dust.

[Zatnikitelman]

Someone mentioned that there are consequences to what you do. Crashing should be one of them. Railroads don't ahve dispatchers and CTC machines monitoring every inch of territory. There is such thing as Automatic Block Signals that look at the blocks they control, and the adjacent blocks, and signal accordingly.
One time back in MSTS 1, I was having trouble making it up the East side of Summit on the default Marias Pass so I was running a tad behind though being a freight route, there wasn't really a time table. I was going along fine, greens all the way, then all of a sudden, I see a GP-40 OVER the switch on the next passing siding!! I slam on Emergency braking, but he doesn't see me being a dumb AI so smashup central comes next. If the activity had just ended, then that would have been incredibly lame IMO, I wasn't at fault, but it was slightly refreshing to see what had happened and how I could make it better next time.

[Vince]

(Tongue firmly in cheek here)
How about a crash detector? Kind of a built in NTSB!
If it detects a deliberate wreck, then give the user a Send/Dont Send. :eek: That'll cure bad habits in a hurry! :p

If the detector see's a wreck as you describe, under speed ,limit, in emergency, a Sim news helo arrives and flies around, and a movie clip automatically gets posted to YouTube. :D

[eaglefan9727]

eaglefan9727,

I don’t mean to get off the subject here but you mentioned racing sims and I was wondering if you’ve been invited to the iRacing beta yet? I’ve been into GTR2 and r-Factor for a while now but after trying iRacing the rest of my racing sims are now collecting dust.

No I havent as I really enjoy the GTR 2 series. I belong to a small private 25 or so member league. This way, We keep the trouble makers out of our races and make the 17 races a year more enjoyable.