Modern Day Routes and Steam?

[BNSF5767]

Ok, i had a question if the routes are going to be modern day and say we are going historic and running a steam manifest, and we run out of coal/water, where are we going to get more (refill)?

[Driverman2008]

Ok, i had a question if the routes are going to be modern day and say we are going historic and running a steam manifest, and we run out of coal/water, where are we going to get more (refill)?
Why not just go to a river or lake and get the water from there? Or go to a coal-fired power plant and collect some coal from there? That's what I would do if I was a fireman and my locomotive was in desperate need of water or fuel.

Seriously, I'm sure there will be water hoses or fire hydrants next to the tracks on some routes that could get the job done for the water (that's where many steam locomotives nowadays get their water from). But I'm not sure how we'll be able to replenish on coal, realistically (if my "BS answer" is not good enough).:rolleyes:

[CWR_Employee]

Ok, i had a question if the routes are going to be modern day and say we are going historic and running a steam manifest, and we run out of coal/water, where are we going to get more (refill)?

Ok.. well, the final route hasnt been revealed yet, and I am MORE than sure that it will have steam engines in it, along with places to fill up.

[CWR_Employee]

Why not just go to a river or lake and get the water from there? Or go to a coal-fired power plant and collect some coal from there? That's what I would do if I was a fireman and my locomotive was in desperate need of water or fuel.

Seriously, I'm sure there will be water hoses or fire hydrants next to the tracks on some routes that could get the job done for the water (that's where many steam locomotives nowadays get their water from). But I'm not sure how we'll be able to replenish on coal, realistically (if my "BS answer" is not good enough).:rolleyes:

And unlike Driverman thinks, you cant JUST pull up and steal a powerplants coal, or just take someones water hose (partly because a normal everyday garden hose more than likly wont fill you up fast enough.) I personally have filled Steam Engine #45's water tender from a water tank designed with the intention of filling a steam engine. #45 traveled a Distenace of 21.3 miles and needed to fill up with about 2000 or so gallons of water, and it took about 20 minutes to fill it up... #45 has a tender built to hold about 5000 or so gallons of water, a garden hose can have an out put of maybe 5-6 gallons a minute? lol, you might end up useing water faster than you can fill it up! Even if you dont, it would take you hours to fill it up, ever fill up a doughboy pool? It takes HOURS to fill up, and those dont use 5000 gallons of water I am sure.

Now a Fire Hydrant is very understand able. But I also read that you would have wanted to be able to open the hatches on the water tender when its raining to add a little bit of water. Rediculous sir! Sure it would add a couple drops, but not even nearly enough to make a differance! Steam engines are alive, they are giants, and like a gaint, they eat a LOT, which is only PART of the reason that they were retired!

I dont mean to sound rude, I am just trying to share some info with you that you might learn from :)

[Driverman2008]

And unlike Driverman thinks, you cant JUST pull up and steal a powerplants coal, or just take someones water hose (partly because a normal everyday garden hose more than likly wont fill you up fast enough.) I personally have filled Steam Engine #45's water tender from a water tank designed with the intention of filling a steam engine. #45 traveled a Distenace of 21.3 miles and needed to fill up with about 2000 or so gallons of water, and it took about 20 minutes to fill it up... #45 has a tender built to hold about 5000 or so gallons of water, a garden hose can have an out put of maybe 5-6 gallons a minute? lol, you might end up useing water faster than you can fill it up! Even if you dont, it would take you hours to fill it up, ever fill up a doughboy pool? It takes HOURS to fill up, and those dont use 5000 gallons of water I am sure.

Now a Fire Hydrant is very understand able. But I also read that you would have wanted to be able to open the hatches on the water tender when its raining to add a little bit of water. Rediculous sir! Sure it would add a couple drops, but not even nearly enough to make a differance! Steam engines are alive, they are giants, and like a gaint, they eat a LOT, which is only PART of the reason that they were retired!

I dont mean to sound rude, I am just trying to share some info with you that you might learn from :)
I forgot to mention that in the real world, I'd always ask before I take.

And what I said before about just leaving the hatch open on a rainy or snowy day I thought would be a little bit efficient instead of no drops or flakes at all. But I guess that wouldn't work out too well (according to what you said). It wouldn't be enough to make a big difference as you said.

[rdamurphy]

844 and 3895 run on oil, and take a tank car load with them in an extra tender. Most municipalities frown on opening a fire hydrant and stealing 5000 gallons of water, as the City of Alamosa will attest when an excursion steam train got caught doing that recently. I'm not sure you'd want to use that stuff anyway, it's pretty gross.

In the game, well, that's a different story, perhaps there'll be a .eng file or something similar where you can just set unlimited fuel.

OTOH, I've never seen anyone mention filling early passenger diesels with water either...

Robert03

[ozinoz]

Unfortunately, I had this answered for me in a previous thread. The final route has been confirmed and is European. It is modelled modern day - NO STEAM. This release is pretty much the same concept as Flight Sim. You will get 4 routes highly modelled with appropriate rolling stock. You will also get an assortment of locomotives / rollingstock for us all to plonk down in the generic autogen scenery (consisting of generic buildings, very basic signalling etc) of the rest of the world to play "Thomas the Tank Engine" with, the same way they provide historic aircraft with modern airports etc in FS. They don't have the resources to do any historic modelling etc - that is for the community to provide. If a company the size of MS doesnt have the resources, there is little hope of community providing. Train-simming is NOT like Flight-simming. It is not about what you are in control of, but the total environment you are immersed in and that means an appropriate historic route for steam...
I have lost a great deal of interest in this, it just seems the wrong approach for longevity.

Cheers

[TrainMan_112]

Unfortunately, I had this answered for me in a previous thread. The final route has been confirmed and is European. It is modelled modern day - NO STEAM. This release is pretty much the same concept as Flight Sim. You will get 4 routes highly modelled with appropriate rolling stock. You will also get an assortment of locomotives / rollingstock for us all to plonk down in the generic autogen scenery (consisting of generic buildings, very basic signalling etc) of the rest of the world to play "Thomas the Tank Engine" with, the same way they provide historic aircraft with modern airports etc in FS. They don't have the resources to do any historic modelling etc - that is for the community to provide. If a company the size of MS doesnt have the resources, there is little hope of community providing. Train-simming is NOT like Flight-simming. It is not about what you are in control of, but the total environment you are immersed in and that means an appropriate historic route for steam...
I have lost a great deal of interest in this, it just seems the wrong approach for longevity.

Cheers

Well, you WILL be able to modify existing routes to reflect the steam era.

And yes, ACEs has the resources to model historic locations, they just chose not to.

What's so hard about modeling existing routes to reflect earlier periods in history, the steam era in particular?

[Bill Hobbs]

What the sim would need for proper steam support is not to release a steam era route initially, but to have the internal logic available to allow modeling of a steam locomotive. It would, of course, be best to have an example locomotive supplied to use as a guide for futher development.
Someone from the project has said that they are not yet ready to announce their plans for steam locomotives, so all we can really do at this point is make suggestions and wait for an announcement and then criticize the h**l out of it (as usual).
Bill

[Portergraphic]

:D
I like the honesty we get from Mr. Hobbs!
I can say for sure that we aren't going to please everyone, but we will do our best to set everyone up for success to have the railroad they want modeled.

Elbow grease and time is required, but it's not an insurmountable goal to get track laid, locomotives and rolling stock built and gameplay added.

I think with the collective experience out in the community we will start seeing some good stuff right after we ship.

[airbadger]

I wouldn't be quick to discount what kind of effort the community is willing to put into a project.

If MSTS2 turns out to be "inspirational" as FS9 was to flight simming, I would expect amazing things.

[priatnia]

I dare say to not develop steam is the easiest and most shallow step. A modern locomotive-the more modern it is the more it looks like a box with nothing in it. And it moves easier both in real and in game world. While to adjust all the steam eng elements and the driving abilities realism is a bigger task. And as long as a game doesn't need to be functional,I would go for the steam. Even in real world you don't always choose what is more functional but what you just like,for example furniture.
Hell what am I about ?.. Going away...

[TrainMan_112]

I dare say to not develop steam is the easiest and most shallow step. A modern locomotive-the more modern it is the more it looks like a box with nothing in it. And it moves easier both in real and in game world. While to adjust all the steam eng elements and the driving abilities realism is a bigger task. And as long as a game doesn't need to be functional,I would go for the steam. Even in real world you don't always choose what is more functional but what you just like,for example furniture.
Hell what am I about ?.. Going away...

That's your opinion. Steam doesn't interest me in the least.
The only reason I'm "pro-steam" in MSTSX is so a bunch of people don't pout and cry about it.

[Portergraphic]

I hope I was clear before, but if not let me say it again.
We fully expect amazing things out of the community. You guys amaze us with doing quite a bit with very little.

MSTS1 had a notoriously horrible SDK, but you made it work. This time around, we plan on handing out some tools and documentation and if you guys are armed with a little knowledge you will surely blow our socks off with what you can do.

[TrainMan_112]

I hope I was clear before, but if not let me say it again.
We fully expect amazing things out of the community. You guys amaze us with doing quite a bit with very little.

MSTS1 had a notoriously horrible SDK, but you made it work. This time around, we plan on handing out some tools and documentation and if you guys are armed with a little knowledge you will surely blow our socks off with what you can do.

Sounds good to me, but the others were getting at something different. Nobody is concered that there will be a TOTAL lack of steam, because we all know that there will be quite a bit in due time.

There is concern about the lack of steam in the default package because it will be extremely difficult to script physics for a steam locomotive without some type of guideline to follow. The guideline being a default steam locomotive.

[Portergraphic]

http://tsinsider.com/product/overview.aspx

Take a look at our site, it has tons of information.

Detailed 3-D cabs, locomotives, and rolling stock, with real-world physics, functioning signals and switches, next-generation graphics, and 5.1 Surround Sound all provide a highly realistic experience. In Train Simulator 2 you’re at the controls of some of the most powerful machines ever built: from an ultra-modern high-speed intercity electric trainset, to a lash-up of diesels hauling intermodal freight, to a coal-fired steam locomotive.

[BNSF5767]

http://tsinsider.com/product/overview.aspx

Take a look at our site, it has tons of information.

Detailed 3-D cabs, locomotives, and rolling stock, with real-world physics, functioning signals and switches, next-generation graphics, and 5.1 Surround Sound all provide a highly realistic experience. In Train Simulator 2 you’re at the controls of some of the most powerful machines ever built: from an ultra-modern high-speed intercity electric trainset, to a lash-up of diesels hauling intermodal freight, to a coal-fired steam locomotive.

I already know there will be at least 1
What kind of texture files will be in the game? Ace or something else?

[stonelance]

The game uses the same formats as FSX, mainly dds files. None of the file formats in TS2 will be the same as TS1.

[priatnia]

@Portergraphic : I would suggest introducing some explosions. It is not realistic to have a crash of two trains without a spark or flash coming out. Also damage of the train models without derailments necessary.

[eaglefan9727]

@Portergraphic : I would suggest introducing some explosions. It is not realistic to have a crash of two trains without a spark or flash coming out. Also damage of the train models without derailments necessary.

Sorry, But having a head on collision is not suppose to be part of the game/sim. If you or anyone else wants to see some smash em up damage. Then, You guys need to play a demolition derby game or something of that nature.

[rdamurphy]

Or CFS3, which has some absolutely wonderful damage models. I love how parts come off of airplanes when you shoot them, nothing like a rudder through the windshield to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory...

Robert

[priatnia]

CFS3 ?!

Robert

Transl.

[cwhense]

CFS3

is combat flight sim ver 3

[priatnia]

I always thought combat flight sims are worse than the regular plane games,unlike train sims. But maybe it's not the case with this one.

[jamesc25313]

I always thought combat flight sims are worse than the regular plane games,unlike train sims. But maybe it's not the case with this one.

I heard the same and especially in CFS3 case, so I never bought it.

[Company Notch]

@Portergraphic : I would suggest introducing some explosions. It is not realistic to have a crash of two trains without a spark or flash coming out. Also damage of the train models without derailments necessary.

As has been stated in the other thread, we are not modeling damage and deformation to the rolling stock models when they derail or hit things. Nor are we planning to model explosions. These effects are not fundamentally necessary in a train simulation game, and in addition, they are non-trivial to implement. Frankly, our resources are better spent elsewhere.

-Rick

Rick Selby
Lead Game Designer
Microsoft Train Simulator

http://yardlimits.spaces.live.com

[BNSF5767]

is the ai going to be able to couple and do yard work?

[priatnia]

As has been stated in the other thread, we are not modeling damage and deformation to the rolling stock models when they derail or hit things. Nor are we planning to model explosions. These effects are not fundamentally necessary in a train simulation game, and in addition, they are non-trivial to implement. Frankly, our resources are better spent elsewhere.


Oh yeah,nothing is fundamentally necessary like in MSTS 1. It got interesting in the hands of the modding community. Following the trivial pattern of it is a great way to do nothing more. If it wasn't the modders msts 1 would be on the bottom on sales.

[eaglefan9727]

If it wasn't the modders msts 1 would be on the bottom on sales.

If it wasnt for the modders, MSTS would have been dead a long time ago and I dont thin we would be discussing a second MSTS or even have RS out at this time. Of course, That is just a guess of mine.

[Company Notch]

Oh yeah,nothing is fundamentally necessary like in MSTS 1. It got interesting in the hands of the modding community. Following the trivial pattern of it is a great way to do nothing more. If it wasn't the modders msts 1 would be on the bottom on sales.

I'm not sure what you are referring to in your reply above, but I can assure you we're going well beyond the simulation and visualization capabilities of MSTS 1 with this new version. And I completely agree, the community was instrumental in greatly extending the life of the original version of TrainSim. On this there's no debate.

You may disagree with our stance on explosions during derailments and collisions, but we have our work cut out for us just getting realistic train physics working and tuned, and I firmly believe accuracy here is more important than any sort of damage modeling, at least for this release. Game design is all about tradeoffs, and this is one we've decided to make.

And besides, I won't even get into the significant partner issues that would arise if we were to show trains exploding on impact with other trains. Let's just say the idea would be a complete non-starter if you were to put it in front of a potential railroad partner.

-Rick

Rick Selby
Lead Game Designer
Microsoft Train Simulator

http://yardlimits.spaces.live.com

[eaglefan9727]

Its 3:53 am EST on a Sunday morning? Do you ever take a break from work? lol

[Bill Hobbs]

Rick said:
"You may disagree with our stance on explosions during derailments and collisions, but we have our work cut out for us just getting realistic train physics working and tuned, and I firmly believe accuracy here is more important than any sort of damage modeling, at least for this release. Game design is all about tradeoffs, and this is one we've decided to make."

Oh, but I grew up wiring half of my HO locomotives backwards so I could crash them together... (VBG)

Rick, sounds like a very sound choice to me. If I've screwed up enough to cause a crash, its time to start the activity over and figure out what I did wrong.

Did you think of sending a demo down to Portland next month to the National Narrow Gauge Convention (caution about 99% grey-haired steam loco fans stuck in a railroading world that ended decades ago).

Bill Hobbs

[Company Notch]

Rick said:
Did you think of sending a demo down to Portland next month to the National Narrow Gauge Convention (caution about 99% grey-haired steam loco fans stuck in a railroading world that ended decades ago).

Bill Hobbs

If we had steam ready, I'd give it serious consideration. But we don't.

-Rick

Rick Selby
Lead Game Designer
Microsoft Train Simulator

http:yardlimits.spaces.live.com

[priatnia]

I only wish you great luck in what you started. We'll be happy with the things no matter how much they are improved. But I am obliged to open the eyes for the possibilities that can make fun :)