Realistic failures & collision avoidance & Phase Breaks

[mestevet]

A few things have come up on threads I was involved in lately and I thought I'd mention them here and see what folks think.

Traction motor failures. I did a quick search on this forum but I didn't turn up this not uncommon type of failure of both diesel and electric locomotives. In the locomotive design forum recently, there was a discussion about trying to find a way to mimic a traction motor burnout in the current MSTS without obvious success. It occurred to me that there were a few different ways a traction motor might fail, among them: 1) overspeed - this would amount to a mechanical failure of the motor, flying apart! (damage needn't be modeled) 2) overcurrent - a burned out traction motor, an electrical failure where a traction motor's current is exceeded 3) random, age, or abuse failure - it just wears out for any of these reasons. Someone with more knowledge about such things might be able to make a better list or description. Along with this should come the point that not ALL traction motors on an engine might fail at the same point. I've heard of failures of one or a couple of traction motors and so the unit is weak with dead/cutout motors, but still able to give some amount of power. Certainly the first two items in my list could be linked specifically to engine operation, carrying too much speed or too much current and there should be the allowance for cab alarms for such a condition before failure.

Incentive against intentional collisions - in yet another thread I was involved in, there was a discussion about discouraging intentional collisions. I made a suggestion that one way to do this might be to create a "suspension" or "damage repair" time delay against using the equipment, activity, or perhaps even route (using current MSTS terminology) used in a collision, the gameplay reasoning would be that the mess would have to be investigated, cleared and repaired before the line and equipment used again, and the personnel checked out. On one hand, it doesn't STOP the people who like intentional crashes (I guess they have their place) but it gives an incentive against it. Maybe there would even be a way to evaluate the crash based on speed, force, severity and if only over a certain threshold, then put the delay into effect - a simple derailment, buffer crunch or hard coupling wouldn't set it off. Sure, eventually it might get hacked around but if set up correctly, it could be made difficult, and perhaps we could have a gentleman's agreement within the community not to write any disabling code as an "add-on". Just a suggestion, please no flames.

Phase Breaks - I'm probably the only nerd on here who thinks phase breaks are interesting. For anyone who doesn't know, a phase break is an intentional separation of Alternating Current powered catenary that separates different sections of catenary powered by different sources. This allows for the possibility of the different power sources being out of phase electrically without damaging the equipment. When it becomes necessary, a signal is lit, the phase break section is de-energized and the locomotives or MU cars must lower pans and coast through the phase break (it goes something like that, rules may vary depending on the era of operation, location, and equipment used). It would add some interest and variety to the operation of AC electric powered trains.

Steve

[Turbo Bill]

Another cause of traction motors requiring to be cut out and more common is the power supply line to the traction motor fails or shorts out due to the shielding rubbing against the truck frame. I've had this occur twice in ten years both times to the number 2 traction motor. Of course the one that the amp guage reads from killing the guage as well and forcing me to run by braille.

[priatnia]

If you ask me it would be splendid to hear the roar of a diesel engine collapsing...burning out. Or even to see the boiler of a steam loc exploding from overpressure to all directions of the map..let's say at 400psi. But I am dreaming,the average gamer will consider these a sacrilege.

[mestevet]

If you ask me it would be splendid to hear the roar of a diesel engine collapsing...burning out. Or even to see the boiler of a steam loc exploding from overpressure to all directions of the map..let's say at 400psi. But I am dreaming,the average gamer will consider these a sacrilege.

I suppose what I'm suggesting isn't quite that dramatic, and probably less sacrilegious. I think it could add to the interest in "gameplay", perhaps to deal with a trailing unit with failed traction motors on an uphill climb, maybe even force doubling the hill?

Bill: I'm curious, do the amp gauges or any warnings tell you anything about what's going on in trailing units? I'm guessing not?

Steve

[Turbo Bill]

There is only one warning as the load meter only reads the amperage to the second traction motor on the lead unit on most locomotives. I'm not sure where it gets it's reading from on the new computer controlled stuff. Also the newer locomotive guage reads tractive effort over amperage. The only time I believe you get a warning bell or claxon is if the lead or trailing unit gets a governor button trip which shuts the prime mover down(can reset as many times as you want) or if any prime movers shut down regardless of cause, a crankcase overpressure trigger on it's button which again kills the prime mover (no resetting of this button is allowed unless by a roundhouse employee), an overheat or low water trip (reset a maximum of three times)not sure if this one kills the prime mover or just activates the claxon, and a traction motor electrical short trip (again max resetting of three times) which results in shutting down or isolating the offending unit or cutting out the traction motor causing the tripped button. This last one does not shut down the prime mover.

Before ascending a mountain grade or actually upon leaving my initial terminal I would have the conductor go back thru each unit and check to make sure all units are loading. Also upon cresting mountain summits, I would have him go back and affirm that all units are loading in dynamic brake mode also. Better to find out early how the trailing units are working before-hand then finding out after your a$$ is suddenly over-extended.

[HHackman1]

he he he :p Bill I'm sure you, me & the rest of the RW's would love to have every button, bell, and dipstick on the locomotive represented and moveable...but we got keep some things out of the public eye. (i.e. like where the ignition key goes:rolleyes:)

[Turbo Bill]

I had a nice brass one for 24RL equipped locomotives along with an old F-unit independant handle that was two inches longer then the standard SD9 handle. It allowed me to lean out the cab window for hand signals and still be able to reach the handle with my kinda short arms. Plus I also used my little wooden plug to hold the bail off arm down so I didn't have to bail off when using the train air. Of course that is a no-no if you get caught. The 24RL independant housing actually had a nob cast into it so you could do this little trick. Unfortunetly the 26L valve had no such nob and thus could not be plugged.

[rdamurphy]

Ever seen a "rat's nest" traction motor failure? Basically, a failure causes the armature to catch one of the windings, unwinding it! It destroys the windings, makes it look like a giant bird's nest, and makes all that factory installed smoke come out through all of the holes. I've seen one, being transported back to EMD for an "autopsy." (A trucking company I worked for was the parts transporter for SP, and later UP, for a brief period.) That's how I got to see so much good stuff at Burnham shops. When UP took over, they rented a warehouse across the street, and EMD moved in a Parts House, Burnham always kept a small inventory, and stacked it anywhere it was convenient. It was a seriously old time shop, but worked on EMD exclusively. Anybody know what the ONLY GE locos to ever wear Grande Gold and Orange were? Trivia question for today!

Robert

[mestevet]

Anybody know what the ONLY GE locos to ever wear Grande Gold and Orange were? Trivia question for today!
Robert
Here'a a WAG - 44 tonners? Didn't nearly every railroad have one?

This is all interesting information - didn't know my post would go in this direction, but cool.

Over a month ago, I started thinking about traction motor failure scenarios. The reason was that I had my scanner hooked up to my tablet computer, recording chatter that I could use with my Silverliners. I was just recording blind in the car while driving, not even listening. When I got home and listened I realized I happened to catch an interesting series of radio calls (which I transcribed):


Radio caller 1: <Garbled> to 6 over
SEPTA 6 Desk: 6 over
Radio caller 1: Yeah that southbound that’s going to the airport uh it’s got a lot of smoke comin’ out of the last car uh it doesn’t smell like brake shoe it smells like it might be oil over
SEPTA 6 Desk: Roger
Trainman on 4157: Roger I copy that <Garbled> going back to <broken > (probably “check that”) out thank you
SEPTA 6 Desk: Roger
SEPTA 6 Desk: 40 <broken >(probably 4157) that’s SEPTA engineers

Long silence

Trainman on 4157: SEPTA 6
SEPTA 6 Desk: 6 over
Trainman on 4157: <Garbled> drop the pan on the 252
SEPTA 6 Desk: Roger you said you dropped the pan on the Two Five Two?
Trainman on 4157: I need permission to drop it - we need to drop this pan!
SEPTA 6 Desk: Roger drop the pan

Long silence

Trainman on 4157: 6
SEPTA 6 Desk: 6 over
Trainman on 4157: Uh, I have a fire on the traction motor, there’s flames coming out under the train
SEPTA 6 Desk: Ah what’s that – What’s the M.U. number?
Trainman on 4157: Two Five Two
SEPTA 6 Desk: Two Five Two Roger uh OK Take care of your passengers sir they’re your prime concern right now

Long silence

SEPTA 6 Desk: 6 over
Trainman on 4157: Ah here’s the situation uh the 252 traction motor was flaming I used the fire extinguisher and extinguished the fire it’s out the pan is down
SEPTA 6 Desk: OK roger we have the fire department enroute to make sure everything’s OK out there – that car’s evacuated, right?
Trainman on 4157: There was no one in that car it’s our rear car we have people in the cars one and two, this is car number four over
SEPTA 6 Desk: hey yeah and that was number Two Five Two and car number four, right?
Trainman on 4157: Yeah that’s a roger uh it looks like the fire’s out it was just flaming from the, it was definitely the traction motors over
SEPTA 6 Desk: OK roger Fire Department’s enroute, let them check it out and eh <Garbled>
Trainman on 4157: That’s a roger we’ll stand by here for the Fire Department now 4157 out

Trainman on 4157: <Garbled>
SEPTA 6 Desk: 4157 uh <Garbled>

Trainman on 4157: 6 desk over
SEPTA 6 Desk: 6 over
Trainman on 4157: Yeah do we have permission to leave our other three pans up or do you want us to keep them all down over
SEPTA 6 Desk: You can leave the pans up I got power /cut
Recording ended

New recording
Trainman on 4157: 6 desk
SEPTA 6 Desk: 6 over
Trainman on 4157: Yeah Fire Department’s here and ah we’re gonna check it out now but uh do we uh have foul time on uh on two track over?
SEPTA 6 Desk: Roger we got the south held on two track
Trainman on 4157: That’s a roger uh once we’re sure the fire’s out are we gonna proceed to the airport? Over
SEPTA 6 Desk: Umm, let’s ah get their opinion and we’ll take it from there alright?
Trainman on 4157: That’s a roger uh 4157 out


If it needs some decoding - "pans" are pantographs, 6 desk is a SEPTA dispatcher, car 252 is one of SEPTA's Silverliner II EMUs, they're on the tracks between the upper level of 30th Street Station (the commuter part) and the Airport, which parallel and share the ROW with the NEC south of Philadelphia to PHIL interlocking (close to where the PRR's Brill interlocking was).

You could hear the tension in the voice of the trainman on the radio. From the sound of it, he kept his cool and did a good job, just as you'd expect from a professional.

As sort of a finale to this, I saw car #252 on a regular train on SEPTA's R3 line about 2 weeks later, and it looked fine!

I'd love to post the sound file, but I have no idea where to put it.

Steve

[spad30]

Hmmm this made me think of a few problems/failures I came across as a conductor and would be a nice addition to a simulation. Before reading Turbo Bill's thread, I had no idea that resets on some of the mentioned failures were limited. Just a lowly conductor here and did what was asked of me, so I may have reset things many many times in one trip. Ooops. :D Actually I think we reset until either we made it or until the unit was totally unuseable lol.

The number one problem I can remember more than anything else was trainline problems. The main being snapshots. It seems like I wound up with quite a few trains with snapshots in them. Some of the snapshots would pop if you just looked at the brake. Other snapshots would pop due to slack running in and out. It would be interesting to have some kind of random roll or something to determine if your sim train would have a snapshot, then another roll to determine the severity. I remember a trip on one particular train that went into emergency with every brake application. Other trainline problems would be separated airhoses (had quite a few of those) etc.

Another failure I can remember was on an SD70MAC whose horn decided not to work about 1/3rd of the way into our trip. Thank god we had a wye to turn our consist on a bit down the road. I also remember the computers rebooting out of the blue on two different SD70MACs.

On the topic of traction motors, I had a buddy that had a small traction motor fire after running over a dog. I have no idea what happened with that. I remember having one problem on an FURX SD40-2 that was second out. Every time went went over a switch or a rough spot it would set the warning bell off in the lead unit and I would have to go back and reset a button on the control stand, down at the very bottom. I think it was a traction motor reset? I cant remember for the life of me what was going on with that but I do remember making the rest of the trip on the second unit to reset. LOL

Best Regards
James

[coreynolds]

Brake failures such as broken hoses, or a problem on a car that has to be set out woud be neat. Also, flatspots requiring a reduced speed are realisms that could be simulated, as well as horn or bell failures, burned out lights, or any other minor or major failures that could cause realistic changes in operation or delays to the train. All things that occur in the real world. This way you could run the same activity over and over without it playing the same way every time.