ALPS-OTTO Update

[OTTODAD]

Having worked all day trying to make all ALPS scenarios work in RS MARK-2, one by one adding MARK-2 files and folders to a MARK-1 copy of RS, after each addition checking that all ALPS scenarios work, which they did, I then updated it with the proper MARK-2 installer and all ALPS scenarios still worked.

So I combined all the released so far 4 scenarios with my ALPS-OTTO version and all worked in both MARK-1 and MARK-2 versions of RS. Until I had to re-boot my computer and the old error / crash running them in the MARK-2 version was back ! :mad:

Not wanting to waste all my efforts, I have uploaded the updated to ALPS-OTTO-1 ALPS-OTTO Freeroam services only version to my web site, which now includes all released to date ALPS scenarios, which will run in the MARK-1 version of RS only.

The PCpro AI in one scenario caused a "Failed to load" and had to be deleted. No great loss, because after passing the player train it disappears never to be seen again ! What is the point of running it after it has disappeared from view, wasting frame rates ? ;)

Here is what my updated ALPS-OTTO-1 now does:
http://www.otto-wipfel.co.uk/rs/alps-otto-1-readme.jpg (http://www.otto-wipfel.co.uk)

Download it from: www.otto-wipfel.co.uk/rs/alps-otto-1.zip

[madoke]

Otto,

I wonder what the program is over-writing during startup. I had the same situation. You may remember that yesterday I was happy to have gotten all 4 scenarios to run in MK-2 after changing the gizmo section of the scenario.bin file. I even sent you the updated files, but you were not able to duplicate my success. Today, on my system, the program crashes on every scenario again as if I hadn't changed anything. Nothing was changed from yesterday to today, unless the application itself made changes when closing down or opening up. For any of us to make any sense out of this sim and its processes, which is essential if we are going to be successful writing routes and scenarios, we need to know what the system is doing, all the time. The system needs to be predictable and stable. Its not. RSDL needs to help us with this. There should NEVER be a case where we edit or input a scenario or other change and then next session the change is gone or modified by an invisible and undocumented process in the sim. Like you, I'm tired and frustrated. Time to take another break.

madoke (Doug)

[dick8299]

Madoke,

After reading your post, I checked both my original copy of Alps and my copy of Otto-Alps and both still load and run OK.

[OTTODAD]

Madoke, after reading your post, I checked both my original copy of Alps and my copy of Otto-Alps and both still load and run OK.

Is that in the MARK-1 or the MARK-2 version of RS you are running them in ?

Our problem is that they are crashing MARK-2 RS and only the last 2 scenarios version of the ALPS works in MARK-2 as well as in MARK-1 !

O t t o

[OTTODAD]

I wonder what the program is over-writing during startup. I had the same situation. You may remember that yesterday I was happy to have gotten all 4 scenarios to run in MK-2 after changing the gizmo section of the scenario.bin file.

Yes, I too managed to make all the ALPS scenarios run after installing your *.bin files and then updating my MARK-1 copy of RS manually with all the new files and folders one after the other, checking intermittently that they still work and then did a proper install of the MARK-2 update and they still worked.

After re-booting my computer the old errors were back just like you have experienced.

I am going to give MARK-2 a miss, being happy with what MARK-1 does for me, knowing it's shortcomings I can work around ! ;)

Thanks for trying !

Take care, O t t o.

[dick8299]

I run MK2 in my computer and have been able to run all the alps scenarios and alps-otto after changing the <gizmo> entries, even after many reboots.

[OTTODAD]

I run MK2 in my computer and have been able to run all the alps scenarios and alps-otto after changing the <gizmo> entries, even after many reboots.

So what is the difference between your, Doug's and my computers RS MARK-2 setups, him and me having these problems with the ALPS in MARK-2 and you do not ?

There has to be a logical reason for it somewhere ? ;)

Which WIN O/S on your computer, not that I think that VISTA should make any difference to running the ALPS in RS MARK-2 compared with running it in WIN-XP ?

Could you please ZIP your ALPS Scenarios.bin and attach it to your message so that Doug and I can test it in our MARK-2 ?

Thanks, O t t o.

[dick8299]

Here is my Alps scenarios.bin file as well as my computer specs.

[OTTODAD]

Thanks, Dick !

Amazing ! Worked with my MARK-2 RS too, even after re-booting my computer.

I see that you have been experimenting with new scenarios, "New Free Roam", "AI Test" and "Blank".

What many who got tempted to update their RS to MARK-2 would appreciate is if you could make my ALL ALPS SCENARIOS:

www.otto-wipfel.co.uk/rs/alps-otto-1.zip

work in MARK-2 too ! ;)

I had a go at editing all it's GIZMO paragraphs but did it not work ! :(

Take care, O t t o.

[dick8299]

NOTE: this post is for Alps-Otto route 8c8e02d6-05c5-4433-bda7-da8d0eb73649

I thought it would be a good idea to recheck your Alps-Otto route to make sure it was still loading, so I started Rail Simulator, chose Alps-Otto; chose FREE ROAM SCENARIO, and guess what - it would not load.

As you noted in your post, I had experimented with new scenarios in the Alps route, trying to figure out what would load and would not load. I created the "Blank" scenario with absolutely no rolling stock what ever, and it would load every time. I eventually took the gizmo section from the "Blank" scenario and pasted it over all of the gizmo sections for the scenarios that would not load, and after doing that, they all loaded.

I then did the same thing for the Alps-Otto scenario and it would load.

Now back to today, why would Alps-Otto not load?

After exiting the Simulator, I repasted the Alps "Blank" gizmo over the Alps-Otto "FREE ROAM" gizmo and tried the Simulator again. This time it loaded and ran OK.

I am attaching today's copy of Alps-Otto scenarios.bin file (zipped) for you to try on your end.

I agree, there is something going on, but we have not discovered it yet. Let me know how Alps-Otto works on your end with the attached scenarios.bin

[dick8299]

Otto, the scenarios.bin file I just sent was NOT for your all otto alps route, it was for the Alps-Otto route. 8c8e02d6-05c5-4433-bda7-da8d0eb73649.

DO NOT place the new scenarios.bin file in route 8c8e02d6-05c5-4433-bda7-da8d0eb73646

[dick8299]

I just installed the Alps_Otto-Mark1 route from your down load file, and it would NOT load as installed.

I then took the gizmo section from my ALPS "Blank" scenario, and pasted it over all the gizmo sections from Alps-Otto-Mark1, and tried the Merce Delle 7:30 and it loaded and ran.

Here is the updated scenarios.bin file for route 8c8e02d6-05c5-4433-bda7-da8d0eb73646

[OTTODAD]

Thanks for this latest version of the ALPS Scenarios.bin and I looks like that you have done it ! :D

Installed it into my MARK-2 version of the ALPS and all the 5 ALPS-OTTO-1 scenarios worked.

Mind you, your FREEROAM scenario starts a Tremonti, no player service in sight and mine starts at Monteverde with a Class 166 service.

So I thought why fight it and inserted another Class 166 player service there and all works as it should, even after re-starting my computer. ;)

I like the Class 166 because it's view out of the driver's cab is great for sight-seeing !

The update is at: www.otto-wipfel.co.uk/rs/alps-otto-1.zip and would appreciate you and Doug testing it in your MARK-2 updates of RS and if all of it works then give it a GREEN so that I can start shouting about it ! :D

Thanks for all the hard work both of you have put into this so far and hope that ALPS users will appreciate it ! ;)

Take care !

O t t o
http://www.otto-wipfel.co.uk/rs/alps-otto-1-readme.jpg (http://www.otto-wipfel.co.uk)

[dick8299]

Here is what I did and the results:

First I deleted my existing copy of route 8c8e02d6-05c5-4433-bda7-da8d0eb73646

I then reinstalled the route from your downloaded file alps-otto-1.zip

I started Rail Simulator and selected Route ALPS-OTTO-MARK1

I selected FREE ROAM SCENARIO and it did not load

I selected Merci Delle 7:30 and it did load

I selected ES 4521 and it did load

I selected Merci Per Cimalago and it did not load

I selected R7612 per Tremonti and it did load

I went back and selected FREE ROAM SCENARIO and this time it did load, having done nothing than load the files I mentioned above

I went back and selected Merci Per Cimalago and this time it did load

I went back and selected every scenario several times and they loaded every time

I then quit Rail Simulator and then restarted Rail Simulator

I was able to select and successfully load every scenario

I then quit Rail Simulator and deleted all the .pak files with KRS-pak delete and rebooted my computer

I then started Rail Simulator and successfully loaded every scenario

I have no idea why FREE ROAM SCENARIO and Merci Per Cimalago did not load the first time through, but I can not get them to fail again. It may have something to do with how my computer is handleing the memory tasks and once they were successfully loaded, it was able to load them again. I confess that I have to treat my computer as a black box as I am not versed in how it works.

[dick8299]

I have done some investigating into why changing the gizmo portion of the scenarios.bin file really allows a scenario to load.

Apparantly, in a Standard Scenario, the Simulator starts the scenario at the Players engine, regardless of where the gizmo is located.

The content of the gizmo file directs which tile the gizmo is placed in, the location in that tile, and the altitude.

Merci Delle 7:30 has the players engine located in tile 00000390 00004969 (don't fault me on the number of zeros, I am tired and just want to get this news out so Otto can see it in the morning). That tile has 3311 assets in it. If I place the gizmo in that tile, my computer can not handle it. However, if I place the gizmo in tile 00000395 00004969 which has about 50 assets in it, my computer can load the tile and then switch to the players engine which is located in tile 00000390 00004969 and load the scenario.

I don't know why the gizmo location dictates the memory load instead of the players engine location, but that is what is going on.

In a Free Roam scenario, the scenario loads at the gizmo location. That is why in Ottos alps with the revised gizmo location, the start of the scenario actually changed.

To further investigate, I tried deforesting tile 00000390 00004969 to get the number of assets down and with bare hills, got the number down to around 1900, but I still could not load Merci Delle 7:30 in its home tile. Besides deforesting the Alps is not a good solution.

So in the mean time, my work around when a scenario refuses to load as we are experiencing in Alps with MK2, I will edit the scenarios.bin file to move the gizmo over one or two tiles so that I can load a less populated tile.

I hope this explanation helps in everyones understanding as to the situation.

Good night all, I will see you in the morning.

[madoke]

To Dick and Otto

Checking in with my data, though a bit late.

I deleted the previous version of Alps Otto 1 with all scenarios using RS Tools, deleted blueprint pak, and proceeded to download and install the updated version from Otto's site.

1. Free Roam scenario opened OK, but at the Tremont station, not at Merci, where it originally opened. Using the marker list I was able to move to Merci or anywhere else I wanted with no problem. Graphics loaded slower than I remember, taking 15-30 seconds for all graphics to settle down. This seems to vary from scenario to scenario.

2. Merci delle 7:30 laoded OK at the correct location. Graphics loaded slowly, but the scenario ran just fine.

3. Merci per Cimalago loaded OK at the correct location. Graphics again loaded slowly, but the scenario ran OK I did, however, notice that for some reason only with this scenario I was getting very slow response from my mouse, and in making control changes in the engine. Never had that before. Even quitting was a chore since the mouse didn't want to move very quickly to the control points. As soon as I finally got out of the scenario everything went back to normal with the mouse response.

4. ES 4521 loaded OK and ran just fine.

5. R7612 would not load, indicating that the scenario failed to load. This occurred every time I tried to load the scenario. Yes, all rolling stock and assets are loaded from Otto's files as well as the files of the author. RS Tools says there are several missing assets. I have attached a screen shot from RS Tools for reference. Have no idea where to get these. Any assistance will be appreciated.

6. When I shut down the sim, the whole system crashed and locked up, requiring a reboot. That doesn't happen very often with this system, so don't know what caused that to happen.

So, all of Otto's scenarios work pretty good. One scenario probably needs some rolling stock that hasn't been loaded yet. Looks like the fix is working, and we all learned something about "gizmo's" we didn't know before. I always thought a gizmo was an odd looking gadget, but now I realize its just an odd looking piece of software. Learn something new every day (hee hee).

Thanks to everyone for the teamwork in solving this one. Made it all worthwhile.

Doug

For reference: my system specs are as follows:

Windows XP, SP-3
Quad Intel Processor, 2.4 ghz
nVidia SLI Geforce 8800 GT
4 gb Ram, 800 mhz
All drivers are always current

[madoke]

I'm still looking for the missing items listed in my earlier message. Anyone have any suggestions to offer?

madoke (Doug)

[OTTODAD]

R7612 would not load, indicating that the scenario failed to load.

For some unknown reason this problem developed and had to remove that AI starting there.

You should download the latest: www.otto-wipfel.co.uk/rs/alps-otto-1.zip which fixes that problem.

RS Tools says there are several missing assets. I have attached a screen shot from RS Tools for reference. Have no idea where to get these. Any assistance will be appreciated.

They were not reported missing in my basic RS plus my download ALPS Assets and Rolling Stock downloads and have no idea what part the latter play in ALPS scenarios. This missing rolling stock you show was also not reported missing by anybody else !

The few scenario items which mine reports missing do not affect the running of the route.

Check your ZIP file dates of my 3 ALPS downloads and compare them with those on my web site. Could be that you did not download and install their latest versions ?

Again test-installing my 3 ALPS download into another basic UK default routes MARK-1 copy just now all works as it should, including the approaching AI in the R7612 scenario not slowing down for the diverting into it's siding switch ! ;)

If my downloads do not work flawlessly after installing them into MARK-1 and MARK-2 RS versions on all computers then I shall remove them from my web sites. I am not into releasing anything which does not work everywhere, a policy RSDL should adopt ! :mad:

Also be aware that every time RS_Tools_TMB is being run, it is not removed from RAM and has to be manually "Ended" in the Task Manager.

The more often you run RS_Tools_TMB in one computer session the more copies of it will remain running in RAM, slowing everything down the computer does. :(

Have made Mike aware of this and an update will be released soon.

While I am posting this the R7612 player service at San Antonio waiting to be driven on the SIM ONLY computer, I could hear a train approaching.

Switched over to this computer and saw the PC2 AI passenger service stopped next to the waiting player train, it's doors opening and passengers leaving and boarding the train, the doors closing again, the train going nowhere.

A total waste of frame rates because before that stationary AI started at Monteverde, the player train should have gone past it there and never see it again. Might as well have been a STATIC consist ! ;)

O t t o

[madoke]

Hi Otto,

Just another case where our differing platforms and software environments give us different results I guess.

I absolutely have your latest Assets and Rolling Stock downloads installed. I also have your latest Alps Route and its scenarios installed and verified. It works for you, and works for me, except for the one scenario. My best guess right now is the that the missing rolling stock is why that one scenario won't load. Why I have missing items and you and everyone else don't, I don't understand or have an answer for. Judging from the missing items being 20 ft containers, 20 ft tankers, and a default "presflo" wagon, makes me think that maybe these are from the European version of KRS, and I'm using the US version. Don't see too many 20 ft containers in the US, and certainly not 20 ft tankers. That might explain why you have them and I don't. Guess I'll just wait till something comes along later.

Unfortunately we don't yet have any utility tools that can "diagnose" non-working scenarios or routes. That is something that application designers seem to always put on a back burner, as far as the user environment is concerned. I will note, however that from my experience working with software development over almost 40 years, software designers often have good diagnostic utilities for their own code level development work, but not user friendly enough for average users. We had some diagnostic tools come about for MSTS, and they were invaluable, to say the least. Mike Simpson is making some progress in building such a toolbox for KRS, and what he has done we cannot live without. What I want to see is something that in plain English tells me that the reason a scenario won't load is that it is missing "X", or needs "Y" tweaked, or has an asset available but not activated properly, etc. etc. "Scenario won't load" does nothing for me. Route Contol for MSTS did a lot better and never ceased to be valuable even after later tools were developed. Mike's MSTS "Route Riter" continued on with this task and became one of the most important diagnostic tools for us to use in unraveling the many weird problems that MSTS developers often threw to us.

I guess I'm just getting impatient and somewhat spoiled by past experience. I'll shut up now.

madoke (Doug)

[tripod1]

Works fine for me.
thanks as always!!

[OTTODAD]

Unfortunately we don't yet have any utility tools that can "diagnose" non-working scenarios or routes.

Yes, we have one, Doug and you have been using it ! ;)

Mike's RS_TOOLS_TMB can check routes and their scenarios for missing anything.

Thats how I found out what the ALPS needs and have compiled into one download so that installers of it do not have to waste their time extracting dozens of rolling stock files Luca supplied, or have to get from web sites which use non-English languages.

Having tested installing my 3 downloads into a bare-bones default RS all of it works ! ;)

Which is the scenario which does not work, giving you a "Failed to load" message, I presume ? If it is the latest one for MARK-2 then my last update of the ALPS-OTTO-1 should have taken care of that.

O t t o

[madoke]

Otto,

You are correct. KRS_Tools does a lot, and I'll admit I still have even more to learn about all of its functions. Thanks for reminding me of that, and thanks to Mike Simpson for his great tools.

The scenario with the problem loading is the "R7612 per Tremonti". I have loaded the latest version of your assets, and your rolling stock, multiple times, just to be sure, and the problem still remains. I don't see anything in your rolling stock download that matches these wagons. Look up above at an earlier note and you'll see an attachment (screen capture from KRS_Tools) listing the items that are reported missing in KRS_Tools. I'm still thinking that perhaps the missing items are default items in the European version and not in the US version of the sim. Maybe you could verify this since I don't own the Euro version..

Thanks for your assistance,

madoke (Doug)

[OTTODAD]

Hi Doug !

The screenshot you are showing is missing part of the folders paths on the left.

What has fixed the R7612 problem for me is my most recent update of this: www.otto-wipfel.co.uk/rs/alps-otto-1.zip

O t t o

[madoke]

For anyone else having this same problem of missing wagons for this scenario, Otto has added the missing items to his latest release of his Rolling Stock download on his web site. This updated download solved the problem and the scenario now works great. Thanks to Otto for his kind assistance, once again.

madoke (doug)