China plans 236 mph train!

[rdamurphy]

I'm telling you, I wouldn't mind taking a ride on this thing:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/2659524/China-planning-worlds-fastest-train-from-Beijing-to-Shanghai.html

Impressive! German engineering at it's finest.

Robert

[seaboardairline]

Meanwhile...in the USA, the railroads are dieing! Passenger service in the USA is next to nil, freight revenues are declining! All around the world other countries are investing in rail service. Its the cheapest way to transport goods and people.

Meanwhile...in the USA, the airplines are in decline, passenger service is poor to say the least. Some airlines (like the railroads of the 1950's) would like to drop passenger service and maintain freight service which is more profitable and has less headaches.

Meanwhile...in the USA, bus transporation is about at minimum, Greyhound and Trailways have cut way back from service of just 10 years ago.

[cp5513]

Meanwhile...in the USA, the railroads are dieing! Passenger service in the USA is next to nil, freight revenues are declining! All around the world other countries are investing in rail service. Its the cheapest way to transport goods and people.

OK I agree Amtrak service is pathetic, but are you kidding about freight in decline? Railroading in North America has been a growth industry for the past 20 years now and continues to snowball. This was almost thought to be an aberration by many in the early part of the upswing, but believe it - the freight railways are winning back traffic from other modes for the first time since the 1940's. The main problem for the past 10-15 years has been capacity, or lack there-of. This is why most roads are double and even triple tracking, installing CTC, concrete ties, even buying back shortlines they spun off years ago.

Well most except for CN, as Hunter Harrison is still working on the 80's model of cut, cut, cut to increase quarterly profits. But watch for CN to hit the wall of reality soon too.

Also keep in mind that US and Canadian railroads have always been for-profit private enterprises (OK except CN & Conrail's government ownership periods, but even those were run to return to profitablility), and not too many other nations can claim that.

[SD50]

Meanwhile...in the USA, the railroads are dieing! Passenger service in the USA is next to nil, freight revenues are declining! All around the world other countries are investing in rail service. Its the cheapest way to transport goods and people.


With regard to freight, where do you get your information from?! It's like CP5513 said, right now a bigger problem for freight railroads is capacity to handle the growth in traffic. Not bad for a "dying" industry.

[rdamurphy]

BNSF just laid a fourth track on the Orin Line...

Robert

[jtr1962]

What I find particularly significant is that the train will offer door-to-door travel times similar to air over a distance of 819 miles. This puts to rest the conventional wisdom that high-speed trains can only be competitive with air out to about 500 miles. I've been saying for years that a NYC-Chicago HSR line could match or better air travel times.

Another interesting fact is if a similar line were built across the US you could get coast-to-coast in about 12 hours. Not quite as fast as air, but the time penalty once you count check-ins, security, and travel to airports is only around 4 hours. IMHO a decent HSR network in the USA would pretty much kill domestic air travel.

[rdamurphy]

I had an interesting discussion with a fellow co-worker recently, my contention was that you could walk out of your front door, get into your car, and drive to Las Vegas, 700 miles away, and be standing at the Check In desk at Circus Circus faster than you could walk out your front door, go to the Airport, fly to Vegas, get a cab/bus/hotel car to the Check In desk at Circus Circus. At about 700 miles travel distance, if you kept at it with minimal breaks, with a 70 mph average speed, that would be about 10 to 11 hours.

From home to Airport parking: 45 minutes, Airport parking to check in, another 45 minutes, from check in through security, 1 to 2 hours, depending, 3 hour fight time, reverse process at the other end, it very well could be faster to drive!

Now, if there were a high speed train...

The problem is where to put the tracks, all of the good mountain passes are taken...

Robert

[GCRailways]

I'd say bore a tunnel, like the Simplon or St. Gotthard Tunnels in Switzerland. Although, your right: what's railroading without spectacular mountain scenery?

By the way, have Amtrak's Genesis-series diesels ever had the chance to run at 100 mph or higher... anywhere?

[jtr1962]

I had an interesting discussion with a fellow co-worker recently, my contention was that you could walk out of your front door, get into your car, and drive to Las Vegas, 700 miles away, and be standing at the Check In desk at Circus Circus faster than you could walk out your front door, go to the Airport, fly to Vegas, get a cab/bus/hotel car to the Check In desk at Circus Circus. At about 700 miles travel distance, if you kept at it with minimal breaks, with a 70 mph average speed, that would be about 10 to 11 hours.

From home to Airport parking: 45 minutes, Airport parking to check in, another 45 minutes, from check in through security, 1 to 2 hours, depending, 3 hour fight time, reverse process at the other end, it very well could be faster to drive!

Now, if there were a high speed train...

The problem is where to put the tracks, all of the good mountain passes are taken...

Wow, I didn't know flying has gotten that bad! That's 4 to 5 hours of the plane trip spent not in the air. Now if car can be competitive with air on a 700 mile trip (and it sounds like you might be right that it is), then setting up HSR along many heavily-traveled air and Interstate corridors seems like a winner.

As for where to put the tracks, HSR deals with grades much better than freight or conventional passenger trains. Grades of up to 4% are freely used on most HSR lines. Worst case I guess you could bore a tunnel where needed as suggested in the previous post, but in general you have far more flexibility with HSR regarding mountain passes. Sure, the trains can't run at top speed up a 4% grade, but they can make use of their stored kinetic energy to keep the speed reductions to a minimum (similar to what truckers and cyclists do when they build speed before a steep hill).

[rdamurphy]

The last flight I took was a round trip to Portland, for a business trip. Meaning "expense account" and don't worry about cost!

OK, left my house at 3AM, to go to the airport parking. Now, in Denver, DIA is 40 miles from Denver. Seriously. Out in the middle of nowhere, so, two choices, park at the airport parking, pay through the nose, no security so you takes yer chances! OR, park at one of the Park and Ride lots, shuttle bus to the terminal, shuttle bus back, oh, yeah, fenced, secure lot, and less money! OK, 3AM, leave the house, 3:30 AM arrive at the Park and ride. Arrive at the Airport at 4:15, abouts, check in throught the kiosk, only had a carry-on, no luggage, and a laptop. 4:30, start through security, have to open the laptop and turn it on. Takes about 45 minutes through security, it's now 5:15. Head to the Gate. DIA's terminal is a couple of miles away, so you have to walk to an underground train, wait for the next train, go to the Terminal, then walk to your gate in the mile long terminal building. Arrive at my gate at 5:50. Flight boards at 6:30, leaves at 7:00. Plane is in the air close to 3 hours on the 1100 mile flight, arrive at the terminal in Portland at about 10:30, get to the luggage carousel at about 11:00. A bit of confusion on hotels, the Red Lion Airport Hotel in Portland isn't near the Airport. Waited for the Airport van, got to the Hotel at 11:30. OK, eight and a half hours. Not bad? It would have taken about 14 to drive it. But the time to say, Las Vegas, 700 miles, isn't that much less, since you spend most of your time trying to get through the airports...

Robert

[jtr1962]

8.5 hours for an 1100 mile trip is about a 130 mph average speed. I'm thinking with HSR figure the stations would probably be right in Denver and Portland, so figure 15 minutes on each end to get to/from stations. Let's say you arrive 30 minutes before the train leaves to get your ticket, board, etc. So that's an hour spent exclusive of the train ride. For an 1100 mile trip on HSR figure at least 150 mph average speed, so that's 7:20 tops for the train ride. Total travel time is roughly the same as by air, and this using HSR speeds from the 1990s. State of the art HSR travels at 225 mph and can average around 180 mph. That cuts another 70 minutes off the trip (i.e. door to door in 7 hours total might be possible). An hour and half less than air, and on a trip going nearly halfway across the continent. Amazing.

Wow, your post is a real eye-opener. It just shows what HSR can do for us.

[rd4man]

All I wanna know is.....what's the rush? Why is everyone in such a hurry?

[SD50]

"Time to spare? Go by air!
More time yet? Go by jet!"

[cp5513]

All I wanna know is.....what's the rush? Why is everyone in such a hurry?

I know, travel was more civilized when you could sip a martini in the parlour car and actually watch the country rolling by. :cool:

[jac_murphy]

I'd say bore a tunnel, like the Simplon or St. Gotthard Tunnels in Switzerland. Although, your right: what's railroading without spectacular mountain scenery?

Well, these trains would be geared towards a group of people who don't exactly concern themelves that much with aesthetics... :D

By the way, have Amtrak's Genesis-series diesels ever had the chance to run at 100 mph or higher... anywhere?

I'm not sure of the exact mileposts, but 100MPH running is permitted on Amtrak's (CSX-owned) Hudson line south from Albany to a point south of Castleton, as well as most of the line west from Albany to Schenectady. Portions of the Michigan line may be up there as well, but I'm not at all sure on that.

-Jacques

[djt1]

I'm not sure of the exact mileposts, but 100MPH running is permitted on Amtrak's (CSX-owned) Hudson line south from Albany to a point south of Castleton, as well as most of the line west from Albany to Schenectady. -Jacques


On the Hudson Sub passenger trains speed is 110 MPH between MP 124.3 (Stuyvesant) and CP 141 (just outside Rensselaer). Then from MP 149 to MP 156.3 (Colonie to Rotterdam) there’s another stretch of 110 MPH. Around Scotia, MP 161.3 to MP 164.5 it’s good for 100 MPH.

When I worked for Conrail I rode the head end a couple of times between Albany and Schenectady with F40 and GE powered Amtrak trains, it was a pretty impressive ride at that speed.

[jac_murphy]

I see, thanks for the corrections.

-Jacques

[GCRailways]

I think we'd shock America if society got to see what our current/older equipment could do if the opportunity was more widespread:)!