Foliage Pack [Archive] - Train-Sim.Com Forums

eaglefan9727

09-06-2008, 07:53 PM

Not all of us can afford an extra expense right now.

I think quite a number of people are in the same boat due to the economy while some arent. Depends on how well off each simmer is. I know my fiancee and I are in the same boat as yours after spending a couple thousand $ on a cat of ours that got sick and died and now we are just struggling with paying for our wedding in 6 weeks from today.

I'd like to use the foliage pack to improve the route i'm working on but i'm not going to spend the money on the pack and use it and then force ppl to buy it just to use my route. .

That also goes for the missing route that came with the core sim (York - Newcastle) or the Cajon Pass route. It depends on what version you have plus the IOW route. If someone uses any assets from those routes in their freeware routes. The end user will have to have that specific route in order to run your and anyone else's freeware route that has any assets from those routes mention above.

IMHO RSDL releasing the cars and foliage packs as payware is not the way to go.

I agree, But like they said. They need to make money to keep afloat.

livercup

09-06-2008, 08:05 PM

Hi Eaglefan,
Are you currently running RailSimulator on your computer? :)
Tom

sinclair97

09-06-2008, 08:14 PM

Well done RS on this Foliage pack, and although I have not RS installed right now (huge time commitments), I applaud the efforts you are making to get things eventually right, so carry on the good work, and best of luck.

Mike http://smilies.sofrayt.com/^/aiw/good.gif

eaglefan9727

09-06-2008, 09:13 PM

Hi Eaglefan,
Are you currently running RailSimulator on your computer? :)
Tom

Its installed at the moment, But I rarely run MSTS or RS at the moment as I really dont have the time for either one of them these days.

tonyman2005

09-07-2008, 01:03 AM

i understand that RSDL has to have money coming in but come on seriously charging for freight cars and foliage? i can see charging for new routes and engines.

This just seems like a slap in the face to those of us that shelled out the full price for this sim and then realized it was still a work in progress and have suffered through almost a year with 2 patches that have not fixed the sim to expand its user base.

I haven't been happy with RS since the luster of a new sim wore off after about a week. But I didn't give up on it, I've been trying to find work arounds to problems, Hell i even taught myself how to reskin stock for it to help out and i'm even learning how to build routes.

It just makes me wonder if when Adam started that thread asking about what US content we'd like to see IF RSDL knew right then they were going to charge us for it. knowing we paid full price for a broken sim.

NorthernWarrior

09-07-2008, 05:05 AM

Ultimately it will be up to freeware route builders to decide if they are at ease with expecting end users to pay for a required scenery pack. I'm hardly RS' biggest fan but I have to agree with Mike - until some of the big foliage creators for MSTS/TRS (Ian Jenkins, Phil Voxland, Dave Drake - to name but a few) decide they want to step up to the plate and convert/release their previous creations then you're either stuck with the default or buy the RSDL pack.

From a purely personal note I would not at this stage include payware items in a freeware route (it was something we rarely probably never did for MSTS) but then maybe it is just the way our hobby is going as things get more complex and the "average" artists (which includes myself) fall by the wayside. We become dependant on the professionals who naturally see an opportunity to make some income.

It could get messy of course when lots of little £4 packs appear from RSDL then other small outfits too - you could end up forking out £20 ($35) just to run a short freeware route.

eaglefan9727

09-07-2008, 06:52 AM

It could get messy of course when lots of little £4 packs appear from RSDL then other small outfits too - you could end up forking out £20 ($35) just to run a short freeware route.

For example, Lets say someone has the US version of the KRS sim just like I do and If a route builder releases a freeware route that the end user like myself or somebody else who owns the US version is interested in downloading and running, But requires 1 or more asset from the following add-ons:

IOW ($ 39)
York - Newcastle ( $ 40)
Foilage pack ( $ 7)

If that person doesnt have either one of those add-ons. That means, He/or she would have to spend about $ 86 on all three add-ons to run the route properly on top of what they paid for with the core sim itself and that is very expensive just to be able to run a freeware route in itself.

Of course, Derek stated that you would be able to run the freeware route without those add-ons, But you when you get to that specific area where one of those assets from one of those 3 payware items. That area would be empty, So I dont see the point in running a freeware route in that shape of form. I know I wouldnt be able to enjoy running it.

While it is up to the KRS team on what they choose when it comes to this matter. I just think sooner or later, There will be people that will get annoyed by this and might just say goodbye to KRS and wait for TS2.

Ive already seen a couple people get annoyed by the way this is going, But the question is this. How is it going to be when more and more freeware routes come out which will need these add-ons?

Also, There is even more talk about possible future payware add-on packs like the foilage pack as well, So at one point. Someone might have to spend over $ 100 to run a freeware route properly.

Hack

09-07-2008, 09:55 AM

That means, He/or she would have to spend about $ 86 on all three add-ons to run the route properly on top of what they paid for with the core sim itself and that is very expensive just to be able to run a freeware route in itself.

Or not.

With respect, your argument is an empty one. No one is being strong-armed into downloading or purchasing anything.

eaglefan9727

09-07-2008, 10:27 AM

No one is being strong-armed into downloading or purchasing anything.

I agree that no one is making me or anyone else for that matter download or purchase anything. Its just the idea of doing so.

rgarber

09-07-2008, 10:30 AM

With respect, your argument is an empty one. No one is being strong-armed into downloading or purchasing anything.

An "empty" argument would be one which is void of facts. His argument is indeed factual. It's very possible someone could release a route which would necessitate someone to purchase add-ons to make the route complete. Simply saying someone doesn't have to "have it" doesn't take away from the that if someone did want to have said route they would need the add-ons.

The solution is simple. A strong effective description of "needs" by the author so the user can see what add-ons are required is going to be important.

BTW, $7 for a foilage pack like this, it's a steal. I don't know how much of it is applicable NA foilage though.

NorthernWarrior

09-07-2008, 11:38 AM

eaglefan9727

09-07-2008, 11:58 AM

I don't think anyone is questioning the value for money per se as £4.00 for scenery items is probably good value. It's simply whether freeware downloaders are going to accept they will need to buy the packs. I think we have to try and imagine the reaction if someone had done this for MSTS - if a route manages 1000 downloads that's a fair bit of cash for the publisher if people buy the dependant assets.

That is another good point.....Take the route that Tom and I released last year like the Rattlesnake Desert route. That route has over 2900 downloads, So it would be a fairly large number when it comes to cash if that route needed one or more payware objects for the route.

Of course, That is if a number of people didnt have that certain route already to begin with when it comes to that specific add-on that was needed for the RSD route.

rgarber

09-07-2008, 12:22 PM

You guys are putting the cart before the horse. When it becomes a problem, then it's a problem. Right now there's nothing to be creating this much fuss over.

From a different perspective, RS, like MSTS, is just as much an individualized hobby as it is something that can be shared. Hypothetically, if I as a hobbyist choose to make my routes for me alone, then RSDL has met a need. You can't just view this from your own perspective and decide that's only what is good for the hobby in general.

Just leave it alone for awhile.

And if you do create a route that uses these add-ons then make sure you notate it in the description download in the library. THEN... the user who chooses to download the route and can decide what they want to do.

Hack

09-07-2008, 12:25 PM

An "empty" argument would be one which is void of facts. His argument is indeed factual.

Ah, you wish to argue? :D

What I meant was an invalid argument, as I don't believe the term "empty argument" actually exists (often used, but not technically correct - my mistake). Without having to tear the whole post into separate chunks (and also not meaning to pick on eaglefan - just you, Rich ;)), I'll just stick to the following statement:

That means, He/or she would have to spend about $ 86 on all three add-ons to run the route properly on top of what they paid for with the core sim itself and that is very expensive just to be able to run a freeware route in itself.

Which is not valid due to his previous statement:

But requires 1 or more asset from the following add-ons

Key words are "1 or more" [sic]. If the route contains assets from one add-on, then the user would pay as little as $7, and as much as $86 if the route contained assets from all three mentioned add-ons, but would not have to pay $86 if the route contained assets from only one add-on.

Smart I are. If you wish to beat me up, you know where I live. ;)

Hack

09-07-2008, 12:33 PM

Take the route that Tom and I released last year like the Rattlesnake Desert route.

BTW Randy, have you considered creating a version of Rattlesnake Desert for RS? :)

eaglefan9727

09-07-2008, 12:34 PM

Smart I are. If you wish to beat me up, you know where I live. ;)

You still got one of your bats available? Just joking Marc...I have no intentions of arguring with you or anyone else for that matter. Im just trying to speak my mind and how I feel about what is wrong with this. Of course, Everyone has their opinion on this matter.

At one time I did Marc.....Just not sure at this moment as I am still not that happy with the condition of the sim after the 2 patches.

Hack

09-07-2008, 01:46 PM

tonyman2005

09-07-2008, 07:46 PM

Well after thinking about it I'm going to finish my route with only the default objects. i'm not a big fan of payware to begin with. I'm not going to make someone who downloads my route have to pay to use it.

I don't agree with RSDL's decission to make the foliage pack and the upcoming freight car release payware. IMVHO what they decided to do with these packs is not the way they needed to go to try and smooth things over with their current customer base and to expand this base.

Lets face it RS is just MSTS in a new box and updated graphics. they have issued two fixes so far that haven't even fixed 50% of the things that we the customer said needed fixed. Those of us that paid the full price when this sim was released are annoyed that we wasted or money on a broken sim. some have left, some have stuck around. and some have been working on work arounds and reskinning objects and some are building routes. and some are building new locos.

We all know RSDL was counting on the 3rd party developers to flood the file library with US content but that hasn't happened. i went over to the RS site and looked at the free downloads area. they have a ton of stuff in there, of course its all european content. there has not been 1 free us content released by RSDL since the sim was released last year. and it looks like they don't plan on releasing any free us content. It makes one wonder if the management over RSDL lives in some fantasy world where they think the community that wants US content is happy with the 1 US route they provided and the 2 locos and the handful of freight cars. Maybe Adam and Derek Should have them come in here and read these forums themselves so they can see just how unhappy the majority of us are. Then maybe they would realize they lost atleast 50% of their customer base.

RSderek

09-07-2008, 08:27 PM

Hi,
Just to let you know that we read the forums and know what is being said.

Most of the content on the downloads section on the RS website are either re skins that were done for GAME (part of a promo deal) or content fixes.
There are a few scenery assets created by myself and another artist but they were not aimed at any country, just stuff created in our free time.

The only thing that is really new is the Mk3 tgs coach, and that was made from one of the other coaches and should have gone out with the core sim.

RSDL did produce a number of free packs for the NA release, each contained re skins of the locos/wagons and a scenario. These were available from an EA download site and I believe most from here got as the link was posted up in a number of threads.

We will look at putting those up on our site in the near future.

RSDL do not plan on ripping anyone off, we have staff, bills to pay and families to keep just like everyone else so giving it all away is not an option; however we will be releasing smaller scenery packs away on our website at no cost that help route builders give the variety they need.
Our aim is to give choice, quality and value for money.

regards

Derek

eaglefan9727

09-08-2008, 12:01 AM

The Rattlesnake Desert route would look great in RS, Randy. If there's something specific you're not happy with, other than the features/fixes mentioned elsewhere, I would be happy to help get you going. After the MkII update, the sim is better than ever. Once you get your head around creating a few objects or laying out a route, the rest is a snap. I only wish MSTS had been this easy. :)

Marc,

While I think a version of the RSD route would look fairly decent to great in RS. I am just not sure how much time I really want to spend on route building at this point of the stage. Ive thought about over the last few months and I always come up with the same question? Do I want to spend hours in the RE at this point?

While some people might think its, Because of RS and my feelings toward the sim. It really isnt, Because since last fall. I have been thinking of doing the second installment of the Rattlesnake series in MSTS called "Rattlesnake Pass" which would be a mountain pass route, But I always come up with the same question that I mention above. Maybe, If I had the terrain like the FRC route does. I might take a close look at possibly doing the RSP route for MSTS, But who knows.

My guess is that if I plan on doing another route (fantasy or real). It will be for TS2 sim if I ever decided on working on a new route and thats even questionable as well. As for some of the options I have. Ive thought of doing Beaumont Pass, Soldier Summit, Donner Pass, or Rattlesnake Pass.

On a final note Marc, I do thank you for your genouristy about the help when it comes to RS. I do appreciate that.

ee16csvt

09-08-2008, 01:34 AM

You guys are putting the cart before the horse. When it becomes a problem, then it's a problem. Right now there's nothing to be creating this much fuss over.

rgarber has a fair point here. Or is the real problem (so far) that RSDL is making money on the back of this sim, which their entitled to. Or the backs of Freeware developers which is perhaps a touch cynical!

The RS team as we know, are a business. And businesses are out there to make money! It’s a hard fact of life, which we have to swallow, but generally we accept it!

But when the potential for RSDL to make money on the backs of freeware developers presents it’s self, then that’s when the hard fact sticks it the throat and cannot be swallows easily! It then that’s it’s seen as a “problem”

As mentioned previously, if a freeware route developer uses payware RSDL add-ons to their route, then users will have to buy the addon and RS makes money out of it.

I have created lots of personal assets for my WIP, which will obviously be freely available when all is finished. I’d love to be able to use the RS foliage pack, but knowing users would have to pay for it to be able to run my route, is personally unacceptable. So I shall stay with the default add-ons plus add my own assets, so no RS users will be excluded!

PB

tonyman2005

09-08-2008, 05:13 AM

Guys the point i was trying to make is that the problem is just starting with the foliage pack. the next pack according to the RS site is a freight car pack with 2 new us freight cars and about 12 reskins for them Plus more euro content. that more than likely will be more than what they are charging for the foliage. whats next they start charging for the upgrades to the core sim?

I have no problem with RSDL making money off this sim to continue their work. however i feel the way they are going about it is wrong. They shouldn't be charging for freight cars and foliage. if they want to make money they can always do like most payware developers do make locos with alot better quality than the default ones and routes and charge for those.

here is the delimia that freeware route builders and scenario creators are going to face. use objects that are payware and force the end user of that route/scenario to buy the payware objects just to use the route. or if they choose not to buy the packs then they are going to have broken scenarios and big holes in the scenery where the payware content was used.

also lets say 1,000 people download that route. and lets say you just used the foliage pack. right now the foliage pack is $7 US that gives RSDL $7,000 US just off 1 route. that's a $7,000 profit off your freeware route and the only thing they did was make the foliage that you used. thus this basically eliminates freeware routes because the end user had to pay to get the foliage that you used. and the 1,000 downloads is not unheard of for downloads of MSTS routes in the file library here.

I see this sim as a hobby and anything i do for it, i do for the community. I don't expect to be paid for it. the way i see it If someone likes my work and they want to give me money for it i'll except a donation. But i'll be darned if i'm going to charge for the use of my content. and a lot of the freeware developers feel the same way.

Maybe RSDL management should take a cue from there customers and re evaluate there choices of what they are going to charge for. and maybe they should re evaluate whats going to boost there popularity and profits faster? release some freeware content to smooth things over with their customer base before they start there payware ventures. after all we've suffered almost a year with the busted sim that 2 patches haven't even scratched the surface of fixing.

BTW Derek we all know you and Adam read the forums. i was talking about the people in management above you guys in my post before. and we all know you and Adam catch all the hell when the management does something to piss us customers off. so no offense to you 2 my rant is aimed at the management of RSDL.

Hack

09-08-2008, 06:10 AM

While I think a version of the RSD route would look fairly decent to great in RS. I am just not sure how much time I really want to spend on route building at this point of the stage. Ive thought about over the last few months and I always come up with the same question? Do I want to spend hours in the RE at this point?

Good point, Randy, and I felt the same way when I first saw RS. The learning curve I was willing to accept, but the thought of spending countless hours in the route editor left me squeamish.

Recently, however, I decided to have a go at laying some track to see what I could accomplish. After a few false starts, mainly in getting the hang of the controls, I soon discovered that building in the RS RE is 10 times easier and faster than working in MSTS RE.

The biggest benefit is that you're not having to search through a long list of static track sections. Instead, you select the type of track you like, and start lying in the desired direction. Best of all, you don't have a track TDB to worry about, so if changes are needed somewhere along the line, such as grade, alignment, etc., it's a simple matter of adjusting or removing the section. The entire mainline can be laid, and then you can go back and add sidings, yards, or branch lines without affecting the mainline.

To use Sherman Hill as an example, in MSTS the point from the Cheyenne station for mainline tracks 1 and 2, that included the locations of turnouts for sidings, crossovers, and industries (but not all the industry trackage), took several weeks to complete. I did this in an evening with RS, plus I was able to include the #3 Harriman Line from Speer to Dale Jct, the industry tracks on the North side of the yard, the gravel quarry at Granite, the Dyno Nobel chemical tracks at Wycon, the Borie Cutoff, as well as a short section of the BNSF Front Range Sub out of Cheyenne.

The entire process in RS, including adding DEM, markers, etc., took 3 or 4 hours total, and with a lot more track than the MSTS version mentioned above. Track laying in RS is so fast it's scary, even faster than TRS when you consider the amount of control given to grades and curvature.

One thing to add, is that after I laid the above track, I discovered that the BNSF line was too low, and that container trains leaving Cheyenne via UP would strike the BNSF overpass. It took less than 5-minutes to raise the BNSF line (roughly 5-miles worth) another 5-feet, all without having to add or remove a single section, or even change any of the grades. Try that in MSTS without a TDB rebuild.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, RS isn't the cat's pajamas, but it has a great deal of good points. Route and content creation requires only a little patience to learn the ropes, and afterwards, you may find yourself creating routes like a mad man.

BTW, if you're working on a fantasy route, without DEM, then the Noise tool in RS RE works great. :)

ee16csvt

09-08-2008, 06:40 AM

also lets say 1,000 people download that route. and lets say you just used the foliage pack. right now the foliage pack is $7 US that gives RSDL $7,000 US just off 1 route. that's a $7,000 profit off your freeware route and the only thing they did was make the foliage that you used. thus this basically eliminates freeware routes because the end user had to pay to get the foliage that you used. and the 1,000 downloads is not unheard of for downloads of MSTS routes in the file library here....if they want to make money they can always do like most payware developers do make locos with alot better quality than the default ones and routes and charge for those.

This is the problem isn't it! Somebody else making money off the back of your own creation and hard work.

And as tonyman2005 says.... More and better detailed locos are needed.

I'm not dismissing the North American aspect of Rail Simulator, please don't think I am, I know your RS needs and are as bad as ours!

But RSDL are British and they say they are listening to us. They should know what makes us Brit Rail Simmer tick... or so you'd think!

We're crying out for a host of British Retro Diesel locos, which they know would certainly have a lot of us reaching for our cheque books! For instance...If they brought out a Diesel Hydraulic pack...I'm sure their bank manager would be very impressed!

That sad thing is ... I noticed a sealed new copy of Rail Simulator on sale a few days for £4.99. An acrimonious end to RS's shelf life!

PB

Hack

09-08-2008, 09:19 AM

And as HACK says.... More and better detailed locos are needed.

I said nothing regarding rolling stock.

Stumbl

09-08-2008, 09:24 AM

If they had the ability to do this , it should have been done for the original program.

Did they give us lower grade stuff knowing better was available?
OR Did they hurry along the release so much , etc , etc....

I'll pass.
I know they are here to make money , but it won't be from me.

RSderek

09-08-2008, 10:00 AM

Hi,

We at RSDL would not mind if the Core sim was given away, we make no direct profit from it.

With regards to why is there better stuff being produced now? Simple, we are learning all the time like everyone else. There are plans to address some of the weaker assets in RS, however some of the assets were not thought about or needed.
We also did not think there would be a need for so many large assets, however after seeing how people used the default grass assets we recognized a need for more.

While RSDL are in it to make some money we also have a personal interest in it, many of us are making our own routes, assets and scenarios.

I myself have been researching my old home town station and surrounding area for a number of months and have made a start since the track has all been laid.

http://dereksiddle.blogspot.com/

regards

Derek

rgarber

09-08-2008, 10:02 AM

Like old women... So much complaining and so little doing! If you are a freeware author and you plan on putting out a route for free and you don't want RSDL making money off of it, then the solution is still simple: DON'T INCLUDE THOSE OBJECTS!

Every hobby makes somebody money some way or another. If you choose to be puritanical about it, that's your choice. But there just as many of us who value somebody else's labor and we will promote paying for product just as enthusiastically as you oppose it.

Quit tainting our efforts like somehow money has contaminated the hobby. If you don't want to charge, don't charge. But stop making a fuss because somebody else is getting something you choose not to do.

If you had a company trying to survive you'd do the same thing, that is, unless bankruptcy is your goal. So don't begrudge these guys from making a living. These guys are asking for a mere pittance for little enough and you act like their over-charging on everything.

Do you grumble here at T-S because there's a $30 annual fee for belonging? "Well no Rich... because..." There's always a 'because' when the need to justify why you will pay and do the very thing you rail against. I've watched this hypocrisy for years.

Put yourself to the test. Just even try making a route in either sim where you create everything: all the models, all the engines.. all the packaging, and then you answer all the questions, all the criticisms and let's just see how many of these routes you end up doing. I bet you don't even finish one. Like I said, where you do everything and not use anything within the library.

The crux of all this is getting paid is an incentive. It motivates you to do better as well as finish what you started. I play other games where people who mod can't get paid. And I never seen such convoluted mods to install. There's a few who take the time to make their installs use auto-installers but most like the ones I tried are flat out ridiculous with the hoops you got to go through to make them work. If they were payware mods, we'd be better off if for nothing else, easier installs.

And me personally, I'd rather pay. It's not my goal to hoard as much as I can. I've paid out hundreds to the F-S payware community with no regrets. I get emails all the time from people who tell me they got a hundred or so routes and they really only run 1 or 2.

RSDL is doing you guys a favor. They're giving away product for such a small pittance. For you guys to create this kind of a stink over a mere $7 is embarrassing.

ee16csvt

09-08-2008, 10:53 AM

I said nothing regarding rolling stock.

Sorry Marc I misquoted and have amended

PB

eaglefan9727

09-08-2008, 10:58 AM

Good point, Randy, and I felt the same way when I first saw RS. The learning curve I was willing to accept, but the thought of spending countless hours in the route editor left me squeamish.

No matter what kind of sim it is if it a racing sim, flight sim, or even a train sim. There will always be a learning curve everytime a new sim comes out that can be modified by the end users.

Recently, however, I decided to have a go at laying some track to see what I could accomplish. After a few false starts, mainly in getting the hang of the controls, I soon discovered that building in the RS RE is 10 times easier and faster than working in MSTS RE.

Im guessing that is one of the advantage that RS took with the 6 to 7 years of learning from the MSTS sim of how to make the RE better and so forth instead of the pain in the butt RE of MSTS.

Anyways, While you have stated that the RE is much easier in RS than MSTS. The other issue is time and while you state that it can be done much faster than MSTS which I believe you. I personally dont know how much time I will have to work on a route to be honest with you. Heck, I rarely run MSTS these days anymore, But that is just how life goes sometimes and who knows when I will be running MSTS or my racing sims again on a regular basis. Im hoping after the wedding next month. Things will calm down a little and I will be able to run a little more, But we will see.

Also, The diffrence between you and I when it comes to route building is that if we both do a route for RS. My guess will be that your route will be payware and if I do a route. It will be freeware. There is nothing wrong with that, But the time you put into the route will pay off in the end with money coming in. Thats all I am trying to get at when I make that statement and as for me. If I was doing a route. I would have to be enjoying it while I am working on it to get anything out of the route for myself if you know what I am getting at.

BTW, if you're working on a fantasy route, without DEM, then the Noise tool in RS RE works great.

That was one of the dissapointments that I had with the RSD route. Dont get me wrong, Im happy overall with the route and so forth, But when it comes to the mountains and DEM on the route. It sort of just dissapoints me a little, But atleast I can say that the hand crafted mountains put a little special thing on the route if you could call it that.

They're giving away product for such a small pittance. For you guys to create this kind of a stink over a mere $7 is embarrassing.

While I agree with what you mostly said. I do want to respond to this quote of yours. While it is only a mere $ 7 right now for this pack alone. You and others have to take into consideration that people can use the assets from the IOW route and the missing route from each version of the sim such as Cajon Pass and the York - Newcastle route, So it is more than the $ 7 for this pack alone. Plus there is even more talk about doing other packs of this kind.

Let's say, They release 3 more packs in the future as route objects which would make all 4 packs $ 28 if the other 3 packs were $ 7 each. When does it end? Sooner or later, A freeware route will be released with one or more assets from each of the following add-ons:

Cajon Pass
York - Newcastle
The Foliage pack
IOW route

Now, I have the US version of the sim and a freeware route gets released with assets from the York - Newcastle, IOW route, and the foliage pack. If you add all three of them up. That would be in the range of $85 for me to be able to run the freeware route properly and with more add-on packs coming. When does it end?

Also on a side note, I agree with you Rich that route builders shouldnt put the objects from those add-ons into their freeware routes, But there are probably going to be a number of route builders that dont see or care what RS is doing.

RSDLadam

09-08-2008, 11:26 AM

npcleary

09-08-2008, 11:27 AM

Also on a side note, I agree with you Rich that route builders shouldnt put the objects from those add-ons into their freeware routes, But there are probably going to be a number of route builders that dont see or care what RS is doing.

There are a lot of route builders who would take exception to that statement. I am 6 months into a route build and am constantly looking for more realistic scenery, especially foliage. I am well aware of the pros and cons of what RSDL is doing but, in the absence of realistic foliage from the freeware community, I have to use the best available. If you or others don't want to download my route when it is ready then fine, that's your choice. The alternative is for you or others to produce some good freeware foliage. How about it? :)

Nick

ee16csvt

09-08-2008, 11:58 AM

Like old women... So much complaining and so little doing! If you are a freeware author and you plan on putting out a route for free and you don't want RSDL making money off of it, then the solution is still simple: DON'T INCLUDE THOSE OBJECTS!

RSDL is doing you guys a favour. They're giving away product for such a small pittance. For you guys to create this kind of a stink over a mere $7 is embarrassing.

rgarber

I most certainly WON'T be including RS add-ons in my route...should I make it available to the wider RS community

But I'll thank you rgarber to not address me, or others who share my view as "like old woman"

This is a forum where points of view should be accepted whether agreed with or not! We can easily drop in to squabble mode but I feel this is a touch more than that!

Name-calling is most certainly not part of your remit here!!!

If you think that Freeware authors should just shut up and allow others, for instance RSDL, to make money out of their own free time, expertise and ability then your very much mistaken. Because reading in between the lines, that's what I feel your saying.

You may think it's OK for RS to pocket £4/$7 per Freeware route that requires an RS add-on (foliage pack). That's your view and I defend your right to it but not when expressed so bombastically over other views!

And as for the stink over $7 and it being embarrassing, and RSDL doing us guys a favour.

Regarding the favour comment. In a different light some may agree with you, in fact to a degree myself also, but possibly not in the context you mean it! By creating assets yes, but the EULA does put a different slant on it.

Regarding the $7 embarrassment.. YOU, sunshine, are missing the point, and missing it an a very big way

I've paid hundreds of pounds just to get my computer to work properly with RS and I guess I'm not on my own with that score. And I don't resent a single penny, or in your case dime!

I paid over £2000 for 3DS Max 9 and will will never make a penny out of what I create in it. But I'm not loosing sleep over it!

£4 is nothing to me and I have no problem forking it out! But making a route with needs the foliage pack available to the RS community knowing they might have to pay the £4 for the add on to enable the route to run, is something completely different! The route is then, no longer Freeware to them, is it? And that may be seen as going against the spirit of the community

If I may just finish here saying I have released nothing yet for RS, but that doesn't mean I'm "doing so little" as mentioned above by rgarber. I have a very large stable of RS compatible assets but they all need to be checked to see if they will work after the MK2 upgrade. Which will take even more of my time!

Like a lot of people out there work full time, as I do, 24-7-365 in fact and free time doesn't come easy. So I'd rather not have some else indirectly making money off the back of it!!!

This reply is without malice....

PB

ee16csvt

09-08-2008, 12:10 PM

There are a lot of route builders who would take exception to that statement. I am 6 months into a route build and am constantly looking for more realistic scenery, especially foliage. I am well aware of the pros and cons of what RSDL is doing but, in the absence of realistic foliage from the freeware community, I have to use the best available. If you or others don't want to download my route when it is ready then fine, that's your choice. The alternative is for you or others to produce some good freeware foliage. How about it? :)

Nick

Nick

Yes, your right.

I've spent a lot of time working on other assets and objects and have neglected foliage feeling someone else will be doing it only to find their possible not.

Although there are some freeware downloads on UK trains sim which unfortunately I had a few problems with!

Quite frankly the current default stock of RS foliage isn't that bad really it's just that we always want more.

As for you route...where is it based?

PB

npcleary

09-08-2008, 12:14 PM

Hi PB

It's based on the Forest of Dean - hence the need for foliage! http://forums.uktrainsim.com/viewtopic.php?f=218&t=86345#p1039207

Nick

eaglefan9727

09-08-2008, 12:19 PM

There is no-one telling MSTS route builders not to use any commercial products when developing their routes

Im not sure about that as I know there are a few people that have done re-works of freeware routes that they have had permission from the original author of releasing their version of the freeware route, But dont have permission from the payware companies due to payware objects in their update freeware route.

It seems like a large part of those opposed to RSDL charging anything for its work

Did I say I was opposed to RSDL charging anything for their work. No, I didnt say that as I know a business has to make money somehow. Ive been on the business side, So I know what it means.

Please accept the fact that no-one HAS to do anything. People only do what they WANT to do. If a route builder wants the extra foliage, they choose to use it. If a user wants to download a route with additional requirements, they choose to.

I agree that no one has to do anything that they dont want to. Just like, I dont have to go to work if I dont want to. It is my choosing.

If those opposed to the use of commercial assets in free routes are basing their concern on the fact there is no free scenery to use an an alternative, then they should create some free scenery to solve the problem. Its a bit rich for someone to say a route builder cannot use commercial scenery, because they themselves dont want to buy it.

Im not basing my concerns on the fact that there is no free scenery to use an an alternative for route builders. My concern is this.....Lets say next year. Someone discovers your sim and buys the core sim itself and then finds all these add-on routes from the library here or anywhere else on the net. Then, They discover that most of the routes need additional routes and add-on packs to be able to run the route properly which could be a extra $ 5 to $ 100 more and some of them might not be something that they are interested in at all. Would they be willing to spend the $ -- money to be able to run the freeware route properly. Some might and some wont and those that wont might just forget about the sim all together and just go to a competitor sim. Just cant say for sure what the percentage will be or what would happen to say the least.

Here is a prime example, Lets say I released the Rattlesnake Desert route with payware objects from the Feather River route, Seligman route, and the Cascade Crossing routes. That means if Joe Schmo was interested in running the RSD route. He would have to spend over $ 100 just to be able to run the RSD route properly. Now, Lets say he was not interested in getting the Seligman route and the Cascade Crossing routes as those routes dont interest him in the least. That gives him 2 options. Either buy both of those routes he has no interest in or he cant run the RSD route properly. While it maybe only one freeware route I am talking about here. You could have a bunch of them in RS the way things have been done and I am not sure how many people overall would be interested in that way of doing things.

There are a lot of route builders who would take exception to that statement. I am 6 months into a route build and am constantly looking for more realistic scenery, especially foliage. I am well aware of the pros and cons of what RSDL is doing but, in the absence of realistic foliage from the freeware community, I have to use the best available. If you or others don't want to download my route when it is ready then fine, that's your choice. The alternative is for you or others to produce some good freeware foliage. How about it? :)

Nick,

Dont get me wrong. I wasnt trying to put down you or any other freeware route builders for RS. I agree that route builders look for the best scenery (objects, foliage, and anything else for that matter) for their routes. I did that when I did my route for MSTS.

As for your question about myself and others producing some good freeware foliage. First and formost, My specialty is route building and that is all I do no matter what sim it will be. Doesnt matter if its MSTS, RS, Trainz, or anything else.

tomkat41

09-08-2008, 12:22 PM

rgarber

I most certainly WON'T be including RS add-ons in my route...should I make it available to the wider RS community

But I'll thank you rgarber to not address me, or others who share my view as "like old woman"

This is a forum where points of view should be accepted whether agreed with or not! We can easily drop in to squabble mode but I feel this is a touch more than that!

Name-calling is most certainly not part of your remit here!!!

If you think that Freeware authors should just shut up and allow others, for instance RSDL, to make money out of their own free time, expertise and ability then your very much mistaken. Because reading in between the lines, that's what I feel your saying.

You may think it's OK for RS to pocket £4/$7 per Freeware route that requires an RS add-on (foliage pack). That's your view and I defend your right to it but not when expressed so bombastically over other views!

And as for the stink over $7 and it being embarrassing, and RSDL doing us guys a favour.

Regarding the favour comment. In a different light some may agree with you, in fact to a degree myself also, but possibly not in the context you mean it! By creating assets yes, but the EULA does put a different slant on it.

Regarding the $7 embarrassment.. YOU, sunshine, are missing the point, and missing it an a very big way

I've paid hundreds of pounds just to get my computer to work properly with RS and I guess I'm not on my own with that score. And I don't resent a single penny, or in your case dime!

I paid over £2000 for 3DS Max 9 and will will never make a penny out of what I create in it. But I'm not loosing sleep over it!

£4 is nothing to me and I have no problem forking it out! But making a route with needs the foliage pack available to the RS community knowing they might have to pay the £4 for the add on to enable the route to run, is something completely different! The route is then, no longer Freeware to them, is it? And that may be seen as going against the spirit of the community

If I may just finish here saying I have released nothing yet for RS, but that doesn't mean I'm "doing so little" as mentioned above by rgarber. I have a very large stable of RS compatible assets but they all need to be checked to see if they will work after the MK2 upgrade. Which will take even more of my time!

Like a lot of people out there work full time, as I do, 24-7-365 in fact and free time doesn't come easy. So I'd rather not have some else indirectly making money off the back of it!!!

This reply is without malice....

PB

I agree 100% with you.

Adam and Derek,

I really need the scenery pack, but I don't want RSDL making money off of my
freeware route. I'm the one doing the work laying the track, scenery and then go back
and redoing the trees again because you made them better and like I said before
you should've made those types of trees when RailSimulator came out. I would pay
for rolling stock, like different types of engines and freight cars but not scenery pack.
Rolling stock is not included in freeware routes. I'm doing the Western Maryland Route
and all of dem data is done, 100% of the track is layed and 25% of the scenery is
done and the route is about 60 to 70 miles. But now I'm done with it, I'm going to trash it
because I don't want RSDL making money off of it when I put all the work into it, I'm done
with the route.

eaglefan9727

09-08-2008, 12:38 PM

I really need the scenery pack, but I don't wan't RSDL making money off of my freeware route. I'm the one doing the work laying the track, scenery. I'm doing the Western Maryland Route and all of dem data is done, 100% of the track is layed and 25% of the scenery is done and the route is about 60 to 70 miles. But now I'm done with it, I'm going to trash it because I don't want RSDL making money off of it when I put all the work into it, I'm done with the route.

This is one of the points that I am getting at. While, It might just be one freeware route lost at this moment. There could be others in the future that could be lost due to this issue and with TS2 looming next year and with TS 2 having the WOR. I would say it could be a big battle for you guys to compete againts the competitors. Atleast, You have another year or so to try to make this sim as good as it can get.

ee16csvt

09-08-2008, 12:44 PM

There is no-one telling MSTS route builders not to use any commercial products when developing their routes, yet here in the RailSim forum it seems to be a massive concern.

It seems like a large part of those opposed to RSDL charging anything for its work, is that route builders will have to use these items to make their route, and those wishing to run these routes will then have to buy those same items.

Please accept the fact that no-one HAS to do anything. People only do what they WANT to do. If a route builder wants the extra foliage, they choose to use it. If a user wants to download a route with additional requirements, they choose to.

If those opposed to the use of commercial assets in free routes are basing their concern on the fact there is no free scenery to use an an alternative, then they should create some free scenery to solve the problem. Its a bit rich for someone to say a route builder cannot use commercial scenery, because they themselves don't want to buy it.

Yes Adam

We, they, all have a choice!

Now I accept your point... They have a choice but it may be a disappointing one for them!

But it's the disappointment that comes with a forced choice.
A choice forced about because users may not have the financial means to pay conveniently or to pay at all. In which case they are then not untitled to a free route because they can't to pay!

It has comes to the point where if RS commercial scenery is used in a route which is principally Freeware, then the end users has to pay you, RSDL, for the necessary assets to run the Freeware route. This is almost like a "royalty" payment which you receive every time someone does buy the required asset for them to enjoy someone else's work.

Perhaps RSDL might think about a more robust EULA for certain add-ons which are more in tune with freeware developers and don't pass any other costs on to users whilst not making money themselves.

I would gladly pay that little bit more for such a "developer" add-on if the end user have the freedom to play the route at no cost to them!

Hang on, I can hear them already........ Why shouldn't they pay!!!!

Because it's the spirit of Freeware routes that's why.......

As you know Adam, this can drive software underground and available for free to those who know where to find it!

It may only be 4 quid but paying £4 or paying nothing.........

That might become the choice for some people!

PB

ee16csvt

09-08-2008, 12:55 PM

Hi PB

It's based on the Forest of Dean - hence the need for foliage! http://forums.uktrainsim.com/viewtopic.php?f=218&t=86345#p1039207

Nick

WOW...

As Felix DeSouza said to Elmo McElroy in the 51st State......well it's something about dogs and their private parts which can't be mentioned here.

It looks great Nick. Dare I ask how much longer to go......

PB

Capt_Scarlet

09-08-2008, 01:32 PM

I agree 100% with you.

Adam and Derek,

I really need the scenery pack, but I don't won't RSDL making money off of my
freeware route. I'm the one doing the work laying the track, scenery and then go back
and redoing the trees again because you made them better and like I said before
you should've made those types of trees when RailSimulator came out. I would pay
for rolling stock, like different types of engines and freight cars but not scenery pack.
Rolling stock is not included in freeware routes. I'm doing the Western Maryland Route
and all of dem data is done, 100% of the track is layed and 25% of the scenery is
done and the route is about 60 to 70 miles. But now I'm done with it, I'm going to trash it
because I don't want RSDL making money off of it when I put all the work into it, I'm done
with the route.

I don't get the problem in this respect. If a route builder wants to create a "true" freeware route even if a payware package has items he wants then the choice is his alone.

He can either choose to include the payware items knowing that some users may not be able to fully experience the route OR he decides not to use payware items in a route on principle and only use what's freely available even if it means waiting a bit longer for new free scenary.

John

Colin

09-08-2008, 01:52 PM

Hi PB

It's based on the Forest of Dean - hence the need for foliage! http://forums.uktrainsim.com/viewtopic.php?f=218&t=86345#p1039207

Nick

That is truly fanatastic. Just the sort of thing I would love. :)
Keep it up Nick

Dan1

09-08-2008, 01:53 PM

The obvious solution would be to build the route without using scenery from the scenery pack. Just like some people use just default MSTS stuff, just like some people don't use X-Tracks etc etc.

There are MSTS routes that use payware scenery. Want to run the route - well you need to get have an add-on. That route develop made that choice, and the person d-ling the route has the choice to make. So what is the difference between RSDL 'making money off your hard work' and say MLT making money off your hard work?

What is the difference between a route that requires certain add-ons as running an activity or scenario that requires certain add ons? I don't see any scenario creators saying that they won't use SLI/MLT/DW rolling stock because they don't want people making money off their hard work.

I will say that it would be nice if RSDL were to release some freeware scenery items as well as the payware stuff.

rgarber

09-08-2008, 01:54 PM

Capt_Scarlet

09-08-2008, 02:00 PM

I will say that it would be nice if RSDL were to release some freeware scenery items as well as the payware stuff.

They have said they will be, so for those who don't want the payware scenery pack don't despair there will be something for you as well.

John

ee16csvt

09-08-2008, 02:14 PM

I'll say it again... old women! :p Said without malice of course.

The moment you say whether RSDL can make money off their labor or not, you've imposed your "points of view" on their livelihood. I just know you'll be the first in line complaining if somebody did this to you. This community has longsuffered enough those not only willing to cut off their nose to spite their face but those who will do it for everybody else as well.

It's real simple. YOU DON'T HAVE TO USE THE PRODUCT! This isn't the first non-issue blown out of proportion, that's for sure. But, if you build a route with the foilage pack in it then you got to put it right there on the description for the download. That's all you have to do. And if you refuse to use RSDL objects then fine! Go make your own. But to stink up the joint with this noise that RSDL isn't entitled to make a buck off a foilage pack but off of selling RS is, is nonsensical. Downright foolhardy if you ask me. Makes you look like a cheapskate at these prices.

Maxis or whoever is making all those Sims pack nowadays are charging $20 for the extra add-ons they deliver for their original product. You gonna tell them they have no business doing that either?

My opinion is these guys are bending over backwards to save you money and stay in business so you have a sim to mess with.

What's amazing to me is here's the same forum that in harmony joyously chorused how RSDL would be around to continue patching the sim whereas MS bailed out early. Now they fight for survival and the first chance some of you guys get, you put a noose around their neck. Fickle!

Well, we can see quite clearly here, the kind of person in rgarber, in which we are dealing with................

rgarber's point of view over everyone else's because he's right and were all wrong! and your expressed view or opinion is absolute rubbish so shut up and stop moaning like old woman. 3,582 posts and he has the right to call certain forum members "old woman" and feel he beyond reproach.

No point expressing your point of view because it's pretty obvious he doesn't even take the time to understand it. And if he did and it dared to not be linear with his, then your an old woman!

rgarber..... it's pretty obvious that discussing the colour of orange juice with you would lead conflict. Sorry did I spell colour wrong there!

I'm out of here...not because I can't stand the heat.. oh no!!
I'm sick to death of this one man and his dog attitude!!!!

PB signing off for good, because if I stay any longer I'll end up insulting someone!

rgarber

09-08-2008, 02:16 PM

Somebody brought up the question too that what happens if RSDL does several of these $7 projects and to what end would someone have to pay to download a route which included these.

First, the presumption here is that someone would have to do this... all at once. Sure it happens and nobody is a happy camper when they have to play catch-up but if you purchase as it goes, the cost is marginalized. Same if you build a model railroad layout. I've never stopped to calculate the whole cost of my layout which took me a year to two to build but I'm sure it was over a thousand bucks. If I look at the total payout for my house, would I have ever laid out the money for the first project knowing how much I would eventually spend? Might make me think twice but if I need something done, it's gotta get done. The person who pays as he goes is spared the total layout of 'all at once.'

Second, these projects don't even exist yet. They could be well worth the money for all you know. You can't assume for argument's sake something which isn't there isn't worth it. Look at the foilage pack and if it's worth the money now, then chances the next thing will be worth the money too. And even if it comes to a sizeable sum. We do it all the time when we purchase software upgrades, do we not?

t1metraveller

09-08-2008, 02:53 PM

but if you purchase as it goes, the cost is marginalized. Same if you build a model railroad layout.

Rich,

I basically agree with you on your points.

However. Keep in mind that it has often been stated that the advantage of "virtual railroading" is that we don't have to constantly spend the oodles of money to build a route (layout), as we do for a model railroad. When virtual train-simming becomes a "money-sink" like model railroading is, that's when I stop.

Come on builders and modelers, how 'bout some nice scenery?

I'm not a modeler. But - I am a contributor, so I feel I can say that. 4 programs so far, and maybe more. Some free foliage, please?

Bill

eaglefan9727

09-08-2008, 02:53 PM

The obvious solution would be to build the route without using scenery from the scenery pack.

I agree as that would be the obvious solution, But a number of route builders like myself try to use the best scenery they can get their hands on when creating a route.

There are MSTS routes that use payware scenery.

I cant think of one route that I have downloaded that required any payware objects of any kind and Ive downloaded over a couple hundred routes since I have been playing with MSTS.

What is the difference between a route that requires certain add-ons as running an activity or scenario.

The payware rolling stock and locomotives can be swapped out for freeware/default rolling stock.

The moment you say whether RSDL can make money off their labor or not, you've imposed your "points of view" on their livelihood.

Ill repeast myself again and say that I have no real issue with RSDL making money off their labor and products as that is not the real issue here if you look at it closely. It goes beyond RSDL making money off their labor which is fine and dandy, But I guess there are people that just wont get it.

But to stink up the joint with this noise that RSDL isn't entitled to make a buck off a foilage pack but off of selling RS is, is nonsensical. Downright foolhardy if you ask me. Makes you look like a cheapskate at these prices.

Sooner or later, There might be a big issue about piracy with people sending the Foliage pack, IOW route, York to Newcastle route to their friends, So they can run the freeware routes and guess who will be the first one to complain. It will be RSDL that will be the first people to complain about it. While I am very againts the issue of piracy. I am also againts the issue of people making money off others people work in this kind of perspective[/QUOTE]

My opinion is these guys are bending over backwards to save you money and stay in business so you have a sim to mess with.

I agree that these guys have bent backwards for this sim and tried to make it better and that is one of the things that I really do appreciate that from them. On the other hand, They might be killing the sim in the same process.

Somebody brought up the question too that what happens if RSDL does several of these $7 projects and to what end would someone have to pay to download a route which included these.

First, the presumption here is that someone would have to do this... all at once. Sure it happens and nobody is a happy camper when they have to play catch-up but if you purchase as it goes, the cost is marginalized.

While I understand what youre saying and makes perfect sense. There are 2 flaws in it....

1.) Somebody buys RS in the summer of 2009. Lets say RSDL releases 6 packs of these $ 7 payware packs and lets say the majority of the freeware routes that come out needs a diffrent payware pack. That means the person would have to spend a extra $ 42 to run routes that are suppose to be freeware and thats not even including the missing default route from each version that he might have to pay for and the IOW route either to run the freeware route.

2.) Once youre required to pay a certain amount of money on a route that is suppose to be freeware. It doesnt stay freeware, Because it becomes payware.

Dan1

09-08-2008, 03:29 PM

Eaglefan - I know that you love to talk about yourself most of the time but lets stick to the issues.

First point - so what - you'll just have to use the best freeware scenery objects. Just as you can't use SLI or 3dtrains scenery objects in freeware routes for MSTS

Second point - Goodrich and Exeter

Third point - and so what? The principle is the same - I don't see anyone saying 'I am only going to repaint freeware locos because I don't want MLT, SLI etc to make money off my efforts.'

Basically you just like bitching about RS and will never miss an opportunity.

RSDLadam

09-08-2008, 03:29 PM

Eaglefan, I would like to ask a few questions.

Why do you constantly list out only RSDL products available for RailSim as being the minimum requirement for any user to experience an at this point in time theoretical freely released route that just happens to use them all?

Remember there are also all the excellent stuff by German Railroads, the rolling stock by Digital Tractions, and the new sounds by Richard Armstrong. Thats not forgetting the stuff coming from Just Trains and Railwaves in the near future. This is only the publically confirmed stuff as well.

Also, why are you insistant on claiming that any new comer in 2009 will be forced to buy up everything in sight just to be able to run a single free route, in the possible case that any route they want happens to include payware content. We havent witnessed such a situation with any previous TrainSim, so what makes RailSim any different?

I can understand your concern that freeware route developers may begin to use commercial content in their work, at which point a route is no longer technically free, but the situation you are worried about hasnt even occured yet, so this entire debate is purely hypothectial. Even if it did, I would imagine that it wont be a blanket - every free route needs payware content - so there will still always be the true freeware routes available anyway.

The release of the Foliage Pack is a first of its kind if I am correct (?) so although we plan to do more, if the concept simply doesnt work, noone buys the pack and everyone sticks to using freeware scenery or their own, then we wont make any more. We are merely trying alternative product avenues in an effort to show all the payware developers that products dont always have to take the form of a route with stock and scenarios.

You mentioned that commercial stock in scenarios dont fall into this debate because the trains can be swapped out, but im sure I have read someone was making a tool to swap scenery out too (after all they are just references in route tiles). Would such a tool make this debate null and void?

rgarber

09-08-2008, 03:45 PM

a) virtual railroading costs
b) sum total costs

a) TTraveler - And it is. For 7 years now we've had low costs when it comes to routes and one foilage pack isn't going to change that. But look at it this way. If the foilage pack alleviates the authorship of a route to produce more quickly than we have seen since the release of RS, isn't that a good thing? I do build objects and they are a time consuming effort with cost when done in quanitity. For a freeware author who wants better and more time for family/whatever, then the foilage pack is one tool he can use to accomplish this. Building a route is a long time in the making and any break... any break you can get... is worth it. This has mostly been a thread about what's good for the end-user. But what about the developer? Doesn't he deserve a life too? $7... I'd do it in a heartbeat.

b) Randy. You and I know building routes is one tough business. Sometimes the best remedy to a critic is to simply say, "you try it." Objects adds to the burden of building a route by x2. I won't say what I'm working on right now but as usual, the route building is going fast but the creation of objects is slowing me down. By a lot. And it's frustrating. The only way anyone can answer your criticisms is you just gotta build you own dude. Folks at RSDL wanna eat and you want better ... how can those two ever meet? They can't. Your only solution is to build your own.

And it's not hard! It's not hard, but it is time consuming. And then there's the curve of building efficient objects that take up more real estate, with less polys, with less textures knowing that 90% of the community that receives your work is mostly interested in the wheeled beasts roaming around on the track anyway. Such is the life of a route builder. *sigh*

Take this foilage pack. It's no good for me either. There's a licensing clause in it that says something like if you do commercial, come talk to us. *gulp* Well, I can't afford that talk so that means I'm on the short end of the stick as well. But for a route developer, what you build is literally your liberty. It becomes your freedom from whomever. Not to mention you have more control and better control over the outcome. The issue over who sells what becomes somebody else's problem and not yours. It gives me the freedom to look at this issue from both sides. As a route builder, that's what you want too. I wouldn't say this for all route builders but for one as talented as yourself, that's your next step.

t1metraveller

09-08-2008, 04:04 PM

Rich,

I totally agree with what you said. More power to the payware creator, they have every right. What is currently bothering me is the lack of freeware development interest coming from this side (NA) of the Atlantic, particularly for common objects. A little more freeware variety and things would balance out a bit. I have put a couple of hundred hours into freeware software utilities for this sim already myself. That's going to be it for me for the time being. It's somebody else's turn. Come on guys. Stop you're whining and get busy.

Bill

tonyman2005

09-08-2008, 04:21 PM

Here's the deal Adam until now a freeware route builder has never been faced with this. in any other sim if you bought it to use in a route then it couldn't be used in a freeware route because they author forbid it.

Now you guys are coming along and are going to start offering packs to buy. Now if said freeware builder uses even 1 object out of those packs his freeware route has become payware because the end user has to pay RSDL of the pack that contains that 1 object.

and what does the freeware modeler get out of it? just the joy that people are enjoying his hard work while your charging a royalty to use the route, when in all honesty all you did was spend a few hours making some scenary when the route builder spent weeks or months. are you guys willing to give kick backs to the route builders for your profiting off their hard work?

yeah thats what i thought you wouldn't want to share those profits with the very people that made you that profit.

Listen none of us have a problem with RSDL making money. however we disagree with the way that RSDL has chose to make that money at this point and time.

When right now the biggest boost to this community is not the injection of payware objects, But a flood of freeware objects by both RSDL and the community.

to be honest you guys say your working to continue RS, your killing it while trying to save it.

Sad thing is i can't get a refund on this sim and if i sell it, i sell it at a loss. i was one of the ones that bought it when it first came out and paid the full price not the bargin bin price. right now i don't even know if its going to be worth finishing my route and releasing it. god knows by time i get it finished RSDL might figure out a way to kill completely freeware routes all together. and profit off our work.

t1metraveller

09-08-2008, 04:26 PM

My point is this:

If freeware never takes off for this sim, and 95% of what's available is only payware, I'll probably lay it aside for lack of interest. I suspect many others will too.

Remember how fun MSTS was (and still is) with its great mixture of payware and freeware? It's not so fun if all that is available is payware, at least not from my perspective. The great, sharing group atmosphere disappears when all you have are "users" of the sim buying payware and no freeware contributers. Part of the fun of this hobby, as we have seen with MSTS, is everybody chipping in with something that improves the sim. I am disappointed in the development level on this side of the pond. Get busy guys.

Bill

tonyman2005

09-08-2008, 05:07 PM

I'm no modeler, i can make scenarios and routes and i can reskin stuff. I'd be willing to learn to model content. where can i find plans for US rolling stock?

I'm not completely sure i'm going to do anything for this sim. since i don't know if RSDL isn't going to try and some how get a royalty on freeware work. i ahve a feeling the foliage pack is just the beginning on freeware royalties.

what scares me most is not the fact that RSDL is trying to cash in on other peoples work its the fact that some in this community are to blind to see that this is just the beginning. first its royalties on freeware routes next it'll be charging for fixes to their broken sim. 2 patches and they can't even get the light cone to work for US locos. i'm surprised we got working dynamics this last patch.

t1metraveller
i agree with everything you just said.

i wonder what happened to the everyone pitching in to better the sim and community seems like here lately a few people are just in it to make a buck or 2.

rgarber

09-08-2008, 05:15 PM

Forgive me for tooting my own horn here a moment but if you remember the early days of MSTS, it wasn't for a few of us 'freeware' guys who have since turned payware, that's what gave MSTS a good kick in the pants the edge it now enjoys. I put hundreds of hours in both East Metro and Ohio Rail and never saw a dime from either. Nobody else was putting out routes of that calibre back then let alone even half-completed route.

My take on RS was it did marginally okay with users from our neck of the woods. It lacks developers because RS was released half-finished or in such a state that few understood it. In any event, you can't wait until somebody else does the work. If somebody else does the work and if they are the only one doing it, and if they ask for money, you can't fault them simply because they are the only ones willing to do the work.

august1929

09-08-2008, 05:15 PM

Now you guys are coming along and are going to start offering packs to buy. Now if said freeware builder uses even 1 object out of those packs his freeware route has become payware because the end user has to pay RSDL of the pack that contains that 1 object.

and what does the freeware modeler get out of it? just the joy that people are enjoying his hard work while your charging a royalty to use the route, when in all honesty all you did was spend a few hours making some scenary when the route builder spent weeks or months. are you guys willing to give kick backs to the route builders for your profiting off their hard work?

......right now i don't even know if its going to be worth finishing my route and releasing it. god knows by time i get it finished RSDL might figure out a way to kill completely freeware routes all together. and profit off our work.

I am just staggered with what is going around in this thread, and the above staggers me even more (can I be staggered more? :) )

RSDL, and KUJU before them, are commercial organisations for goodness sake - they may or may not have an inherent interest in railways, railway modelling and rail simming, but that is completely irrelevant. Same as anybody else who lives, needs to eat, clothe him or herself and look after their family, they need a means of income to do that - and this sim just happens to be part of that.

Of course they are going to charge - and quite right too. Same as MLT, Diesels West, Streamlines,3DTrains, Gaetan Belanger (the list goes on and on) and of course Rich Garber for his excellent routes.

Now, if someone creates an activity for Rich's Canton that uses MLT, DW, Streamlines, 3DTrains and Gaetans engines (unlikely, I know), and I don't have those engines, I have a choice - buy them, and run the activity, or don't buy them, and not run the activity. It is my choice, and there is no good me going complaining to MLT et al that they have been charging for their engines and because of that I can't run this activity...

No different to routes - If I don't have the assets required (as with TRAINZ - and there is plenty of payware scenery there - and very nice it is too) then I have a similar choice - as would you.

No point in moaning to RSDL about it - absolutely nothing morally wrong, or contemptable in what they are doing - the sim came with 4 routes and there are already quite a few out without payware addons - and that will probably continue. I don't remember any committment made or implied by KUJU or RSDL that they would put in the hard work then give freely to the community - can't think why they should.

The route you are making - I don't understand your reasoning there - why shouldn't you release it - presumably it won't have any additional payware, so there should be no bar to simmers, using the sim out of the box, enjoying it.

The argument goes on - I am off to buy the scenery pack, just to see what all the fuss is about (and in the hopes that someone uses it to its full potential in a small British branch line with plenty of shunting, er switching :), that is...)

Rod

tonyman2005

09-08-2008, 05:47 PM

the sim came with 4 routes and there are already quite a few out without payware addons - and that will probably continue. I don't remember any committment made or implied by KUJU or RSDL that they would put in the hard work then give freely to the community - can't think why they should.

Thats funny yes there are some payware already out for this sim. But not as many as you think. whats even funnier is that the european content gets more attention because thats where RSDL is based in the UK. the US side has been seriously neglected.

however there is only 1 route that is freeware that has been released since the release of this sim. there is only 1 new US loco. the rest of the files in the library here is reskins of the default content or scenarios for the default routes and for that 1 freeware route. and there are some variations of the default routes. and those variations are not new works just reworked default routes. and there are some track upgrades and new containers for the double stacks.

what you and everyone else that thinks that those of us that see this for what it is are making a fuss over nothing, are the ones that need to take a step back and open your eyes. this sim has flopped, RSDL for all their effort to try and save it are killing it at the same time.

Now i'm done posting in this thread for awhile. i do have some work to finish so i can go home and decide if i'm going to work on my route or if i'm just going to trash it.

lets face it KRS plumted to the bargin bin within weeks of its release> and why is that? Because they released a half finished product and after being burned by KUJU once with MSTS most people weren't going to give them a chance to do it again. and look what happened we got Burned again. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. there won't be a third time because i will not buy another KUJU product!

If RSDL was really interested in saving this product they would listen to their customers. and they wouldn't be trying to make a profit off freeware developers.

Capt_Scarlet

09-08-2008, 06:12 PM

Gee I wonder if someone other than RSDL had made this scenery pack, would it have caused as much consternation ?

John

eaglefan9727

09-08-2008, 06:48 PM

Basically you just like bitching about RS and will never miss an opportunity.

No I dont, But I had plans to create a desert route for RS at one time which means I would have to use the desert scenery from the Cajon Pass route. Now, With Cajon Pass being a add-on for the european version of the sim and it being charged in the range of $ 40. That means once I finished and release the desert route which would have been freeware. Whoever was interested in running the desert route that had a european version of the sim would have to spend the amount of money I mention above just to run the desert route. Even if only 50 people bought the Cajon Pass route just to run the desert route that I created, That would mean a $ 2,000 profit for RSDL on a freeware route that I created it using default objects from a route.

Eaglefan, I would like to ask a few questions.

Why do you constantly list out only RSDL products available for RailSim as being the minimum requirement for any user to experience an at this point in time theoretical freely released route that just happens to use them all?

Remember there are also all the excellent stuff by German Railroads, the rolling stock by Digital Tractions, and the new sounds by Richard Armstrong. Thats not forgetting the stuff coming from Just Trains and Railwaves in the near future. This is only the publically confirmed stuff as well.

Also, why are you insistant on claiming that any new comer in 2009 will be forced to buy up everything in sight just to be able to run a single free route, in the possible case that any route they want happens to include payware content. We havent witnessed such a situation with any previous TrainSim, so what makes RailSim any different?

I can understand your concern that freeware route developers may begin to use commercial content in their work, at which point a route is no longer technically free, but the situation you are worried about hasnt even occured yet, so this entire debate is purely hypothectial. Even if it did, I would imagine that it wont be a blanket - every free route needs payware content - so there will still always be the true freeware routes available anyway.

The release of the Foliage Pack is a first of its kind if I am correct (?) so although we plan to do more, if the concept simply doesnt work, noone buys the pack and everyone sticks to using freeware scenery or their own, then we wont make any more. We are merely trying alternative product avenues in an effort to show all the payware developers that products dont always have to take the form of a route with stock and scenarios.

You mentioned that commercial stock in scenarios dont fall into this debate because the trains can be swapped out, but im sure I have read someone was making a tool to swap scenery out too (after all they are just references in route tiles). Would such a tool make this debate null and void?

Ill try to answer your question as best as I can. If German Railroads or Digital Tractions took the same approach as you are. I would be questioning them as well. Of course, I havent read much into those two companies, So I am not sure what they are doing for RS to begin with as I am more geared toward US operations.

Im not targeting you personally you. I am just wondering if this is a good move on your part by allowing freeware route builders like myself, Marc, Rich, Tom, and a few others to be able to use payware objects for the freeware routes.

I agree with you when you say that the situration hasnt happen as of yet and we both dont know at this time if it will or not, But as a route builder myself. If I had a option to use payware objects on my route over freeware objects. I would do it. Would it be wrong? Yes it would be, But I want to have the route using the best objects available and with the very little freeware stuff that there is out there. There is really no choice right now if I wanted to create a desert route for RS.

Maybe, Youre right. There wont be much of a blanket like its been discussed on the freeware routes. My guess is only as good as yours, But as a former freeware route builder for MSTS. I know that if I was working on a route for RS. I would be using the add-on pack plus a few assets from the York to Newcastle route that I am interested in using. That means the people who own the US version of the sim would need the add-on pack and the York to Newcastle route to run the route properly.

If someone creates a tool for swapping out files in a route. That would be great and it will probably be welcomed by most of the simmers including myself.

b) Randy. You and I know building routes is one tough business. HAHA..You can say that again....

Capt_Scarlet

09-08-2008, 07:11 PM

No I dont, But I had plans to create a desert route for RS at one time which means I would have to use the desert scenery from the Cajon Pass route. Now, With Cajon Pass being a add-on for the european version of the sim and it being charged in the range of $ 40. That means once I finished and release the desert route which would have been freeware. Whoever was interested in running the desert route that had a european version of the sim would have to spend the amount of money I mention above just to run the desert route. Even if only 50 people bought the Cajon Pass route just to run the desert route that I created, That would mean a $ 2,000 profit for RSDL on a freeware route that I created it using default objects from a route.

I would contend that someone with a EU version and who is interested in NA railroads would already have bought the expansion irrespective of any freeware route as I have and those who haven't are predominately only interested in European railways. If that premise is true then you wouldn't be forcing that many people to do anything.

John

RSderek

09-08-2008, 07:16 PM

Hi all.

I do understand the issues and concerns, I’d like to reply and I hope no one takes offense.

Kuju/EA created the Sim you all bought.

RSDL took control of the Sim and rights, released the tools for free, and for the past year have worked (and continue to work on at no extra cost to the user) on addressing the issues and working hard to make it better.
RSDL also do not profit from RS sales.
We worked on a website (which needs improving!) and along the way we have created an extra route and a number of rolling stock packs to support the sim.
We also man the forums and help users create/problem solve and enjoy RS (at no cost to the end user)
We give what we can to users of Rail Simulator.

So,
If you (Eaglefan) make a route and include the foliage pack and 2000 people download it and those 2000 people all buy the foliage pack it would have paid for itself and maybe kept us in biscuits for a couple of days.
(I know how much work went into it because I went out and took all the photos and cut out every leaf, grass and branch.)

Then someone else makes a route, uses the assets in the foliage pack then releases it. Those same 2000 people download the route and enjoy the foliage (and scenarios of course)...we don't get any more money from it.

And so on and so on.

We get the money once, it pays for itself and we move on. In time if we are lucky it will make us more money and allow us to help upgrade equipment and software etc, all have to be paid for along with wages.

This and future packs provide choice for those that don't have time to make their own stuff and get the kick out of building routes.
We have already said that there are plans for a mixture of free and paid stuff.

While we may be making some money from your routes, you and users are also benefiting from our hard work too.

regards

Derek

Dan1

09-08-2008, 07:53 PM

Eaglefan you are talking nonsense once again. If you don't want to pay for the scenery then just make the route without the scenery pack and make the extra scenery yourself. Is it really that hard for you to grasp the concept?

eaglefan9727

09-08-2008, 08:04 PM

I do understand the issues and concerns, I’d like to reply and I hope no one takes offense.

Derek...I dont try to take offense to yourself or anybody else who has a opinion on this matter. Im guessing most of us are adults and we are discussing a matter that might help or hurt this sim in the long run. That is a real concern that I have especially with the looming of TS2 next year.

RSDL took control of the Sim and rights, released the tools for free, and for the past year have worked (and continue to work on at no extra cost to the user) on addressing the issues and working hard to make it better. We worked on a website (which needs improving!) and along the way we look at creating some extra routes and a number of rolling stock packs to support the sim. We also man the forums and help users create/problem solve and enjoy RS (at no cost to the end user).

Have I not stated before that you guys have been great at supporting this sim all along especially with the onslaught from diffrent people complaining about the release of the core sim itself? At this moment, I can only think of one other PC game that does the same kind of support as you guys, But you do alot more than they have done.

If you (Eaglefan) make a route and include the foliage pack and 2000 people download it and those 2000 people all buy the foliage pack it would have paid for itself and maybe kept us in biscuits for a couple of days.

Then someone else makes a route, uses the assets in the foliage pack then releases it. Those same 2000 people download the route and enjoy the foliage (and scenarios of course)...we don't get anymore money from it.

And so on and so on.

I can understand Derek what youre saying perfectly about only getting paid once if the same 2000 people all buy the foliage pack, But another concern that should be taken into consideration is this. With these payware and freeware packs that you have mention earlier. This might give people the idea of just waiting for your release on your packs of objects instead of creating objects on their own and releasing them as freeware and if that is the case. There wont be any freeware objects except the freeware objects you release. Of course, This is all speculation on the matter, But I think a few people know where I am going with this.

Like someone stated earlier, This is all brand new to us having the ability to use payware objects on our freeware routes if we choose it and then having the RSDL company making money off the freeware route builders. Im just not sure if it is the proper way of doing things to be honest with you and that is just a honest opinion of mine. Can I be wrong about my opinion? Hell yes I can, But im speaking how I feel on this matter while others are doing the same thing. Everyone will have their diffrent opinions and we have to except that and to be honest with you. I think we have done great discussing this matter without having it get out of hand that much in this thread.

I would contend that someone with a EU version and who is interested in NA railroads would already have bought the expansion irrespective of any freeware route as I have and those who haven't are predominately only interested in European railways. If that premise is true then you wouldn't be forcing that many people to do anything.

John,

While I would agree with you on anyone who has a interest in NA operations probably has bought the Cajon Pass route already. There might be a few people who might be interested in NA operations, But isnt into desert routes like Cajon Pass or Tehachapi Pass. They might have skipped paying for the route for that known reason. Its probably not many, But maybe a limited few would be my guess.

As for me, Im not into European railways, But I do run European routes in MSTS if I have interest in the route using american rolling stock. Yes, That is strange, So I guess you could call me a strange person.

Eaglefan you are talking nonsense once again. If you don't want to pay for the scenery then just make the route without the scenery pack and make the extra scenery yourself. Is it really that hard for you to grasp the concept?

The thing is that route building is hard enough to deal with and then to stop and create a number of objects for the route itself. It would take 2 or 3 times the amount of work and not everyone has the time to do that.

Also, Like I stated above. If it becomes a trend that RS releases these add-on packs. How many would be willing to spend their time making objects when they know RS is going to create them and release them in the future for route builders to use? We just dont know.

tonyman2005

09-08-2008, 08:40 PM

here's were the concern boils down to for freeware roue builders.

with the lack of freeware stuff do we want to start using payware objects no matter who made them in freeware routes? In the past its always been a no no to use payware objects in freeware routes. And it goes against the principle of freeware. once the end user has to pay a penny for something in the route the route is no longer freeware but it is payware. Without the route builder being paid for his hard work. because he choose to use the payware foliage. do we as a community want to head down that road?

I can see where this is going to head in the future, the freeware route builder will get pissed at the payware vendors and include the payware packs in the route thus negating RSDL or whoever the payware vendor is profit off there work. then in turn the payware vendors will get pissed at the freeware vendors that do that and stop producing content. then what happens? the whole community dies.

we all want this sim and community to prosper however we have different views on how to get there.

Like i said before I'm not a fan of payware no matter who made it. and i won't charge for anything i release for this sim, and if someone likes it enough they want to give me a few bucks as a donation then so be it they can. But i do realize that the folks who make payware content are part of this community. Just as the folks that make freeware content are part of the community. There is a time and a place to launch payware endeavours and to be honest now is not that time.

Now is the time to build up the freeware products available, fix the bugs in the sim and make the sim more attractive to more people and build up the community base.

This isn't MSTS we can't expect KRS to pick up where MSTS left off. which means if we as a community want it to succeed then there has to be that build up of freeware before the payware or else it just looks like everyone is in in to make a buck and then we're screwed because then No one will want to contribute for the good of the community anymore.

I'm still not entirely sure that RSDL management isn't scheming up someway to get a profit off anything that freeware developers contribute.

There has to be away that RSDL and us in the community can put our differences aside and come up with a way to build up the freeware content and attrack more people to this sim before the payware vendors start making there buck and get out.

A few people pissed and moaned when RSDL released the IOW route because it was payware and it held up the release of the MK2 upgrade.

When i saw RSDL released it i wasn't happy it held up the mk2 upgrade but it didn't bother me it was payware. and it really didn't bother me that it was yet another EU route because i understand the simple economics of it, its cheaper for RSDL to concentrate on EU stuff than it is for them to do US content.

And that's the excuse they have been using for the lack of US content. so they have left it up to us in the US to make our own. Now they have plans on 2 new US freight cars and they are going to charge for those. what happened to the economics that it was to expensive to do the research on US content? seems like its all smoke and mirrors lately.

Like i said many times I personally have no problem with RSDL trying to make money, I realize they have to have money to stay afloat to continue working on the sim.

I just don't agree with the way they are going about it with these packs. i have no problem with them making payware routes or Locos. I do have a problem with them making packs as payware and telling the freeware developers its ok to use it but the end user of the route has to buy the pack. which makes the freeware route the builder intended, a payware route and RSDL seeing all the profit when all they did was make a tree or shrub that the route builder used.

And you guys using the arguement about payware content in freeware routes in MSTS your arguement is weak and not valid in this case. Payware content in MSTS could not be used in freeware Because the authors of the payware content forbid it.

Dan1

09-08-2008, 09:00 PM

Eaglefan - you are still talking nonsense. Does the fact that MLT, SLI, 3dt, DW, etc etc etc are releasing models of locos stop people from building freeware versions of locos? Answer no it doesn't.

The truth of the matter is that you just like bashing RS and no matter how illogical or factually wrong your statements are you never miss an opportunity. You're just trolling.

eaglefan9727

09-08-2008, 09:11 PM

Eaglefan - you are still talking nonsense. Does the fact that MLT, SLI, 3dt, DW, etc etc etc are releasing models of locos stop people from building freeware versions of locos? Answer no it doesn't..

The answer is no, But what if MLT, SLI, 3dt, DW, etc etc etc didnt release those models as payware. Do you think we would see more freeware locomotives and rolling stock? I think the answer to that question would be yes we would see more freeware locomotives and rolling stock available.

The truth of the matter is that you just like bashing RS and no matter how illogical or factually wrong your statements are you never miss an opportunity. You're just trolling.

First, I am not trolling and have not bashed or intended to bash RS in this thread. I am just speaking my concerns that I have with this freeware vs payware issue just like Tony has with his concern and a few others that have expressed their concerns as well.

Dan1

09-08-2008, 09:13 PM

The evidence says otherwise in both cases - your 'concerns' are just an excuse for you to complain and bash.

JBrownCS

09-08-2008, 10:06 PM

I'm also going to skip using RSDL's payware packs in my projects. You will need the Cajon route but you can pick up a NA KRS DVD for as little as $0.99 on Ebay so this should not be a barrier.

I also have a problem with this clause in their license:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
6. You may install the Software up to three times on Your own computer. If You need to re-install more than three times, You will need to repurchase the Software.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I don't think I'll be buying any of their payware until this changes to something more reasonable.

tonyman2005

09-08-2008, 10:15 PM

install only 3 times on your own system then you have to re buy it?? what kind of Bull is that? the longer this goes and the deeper we dig the more messed up this becomes!

If i buy something i should be able to reinstall it on my system as many times as i want without having to pay for it again.

Please tell me RSDL this is a joke?

And you guys ganging up on eaglefan if you want to gang up on anyone why don't you try me on for size since i'm the one that started questioning RSDL's decission on their payware packs!

nikos1

09-08-2008, 11:42 PM

Well that just means make a backup of the assets on CD or elsewhere on your computer.

rgarber

09-09-2008, 12:13 AM

eaglefan9727

09-09-2008, 12:31 AM

The evidence says otherwise in both cases - your 'concerns' are just an excuse for you to complain and bash.

If you think that is my purpose for discussing this issue, So be it.

And you guys ganging up on eaglefan if you want to gang up on anyone why don't you try me on for size since i'm the one that started questioning RSDL's decission on their payware packs!

Tony, This is nothing new as quite a number of people arent that happy on how vocal I am with my strong opinions.

with the lack of freeware stuff do we want to start using payware objects no matter who made them in freeware routes? In the past its always been a no no to use payware objects in freeware routes. And it goes against the principle of freeware. once the end user has to pay a penny for something in the route the route is no longer freeware but it is payware. Without the route builder being paid for his hard work. because he choose to use the payware foliage. do we as a community want to head down that road?

From the sounds of it....Some people might be interested in going down that road, But I like a few others who have stated their opinion in the thread are not.

Like i said before I'm not a fan of payware no matter who made it.

While some people arent fans of payware. I am a fan of payware routes and so forth if they interest me enough, But I am no fan of freeware routes being payware routes. It never happened in MSTS and it shouldnt happen in RS.

Now is the time to build up the freeware products available, fix the bugs in the sim and make the sim more attractive to more people and build up the community base.

The question is how can a community build up their base if 50% or more of the stuff is payware? Just take a look at the file library and you will see mostly repaints and a couple routes that require the Cajon Pass route. Only a handful of scenery objects are available at this moment.

There has to be a way that RSDL and us in the community can put our differences aside and come up with a way to build up the freeware content and attrack more people to this sim before the payware vendors start making there buck and get out.

I would say before the TS2 release next year.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyways, Last year, My route builder partner and I were talking about a second version of the RSD route before we decided to ask a couple other route builders about certain objects that we would like to use for the second version of the RSD route. Anyways, When we did ask them. There answer was a straight out no. Then, We asked around various forums if someone could help out with a couple objects that we were interested for the second version, But no one spoke up. and guess what. That was when we decided to end the prospect of a second version of the RSD route.

This is what happen with his own solo project. He asked for some object creators and not one bite. I did the same thing for my Rattlesnake Pass route project and there was no bites either. That is why people will never see the RSP route, a second version of the RSD route, and possibly the route that my route partner was working on.

The moral of the story is that a good amount of the community is lazy and if people see that RS is making payware vegatation and other packs and going to let freeware users use them. Why spend time working on freeware objects while route builders will probably choose the payware packs for their freeware routes?