And the fourth route is...

[Company Notch]

http://www.tsinsider.com/Articles/AboutTS2/CologneDuisburg.aspx

More images, and a video, coming in the near future...

Note that the images are clickable - take a look at the hi-res versions to see all the detail in the scenes.

And before someone points it out, there is a bug in the signal indications shown, in that the distant signals should be dark when the main signal shows stop. We're already working on it.... ;-)

-Rick

Rick Selby
Lead Game Designer
Microsoft Train Simulator

http://yardlimits.spaces.live.com

[Driverman2008]

Sorry Rick. I'm not very satisfied. I was hoping for a British route in high detail. That's just my 2 cents.

[tlittle]

Wow! I about spit my coffee out when I opened the website - VERY VERY NICE!! Whohoooo more to read about. Thank You!

[eaglefan9727]

Very nice....Looking foward to this sim more and more.

[adam3544]

Great news. Choosing a German route was an excellent idea.
Interestingly, no mention about other motive power, especially Class 182 Taurus electric locomotive.

Adam

[sgtbean]

Looks very very nice. I'm also impressed with the detail; I'm familiar with these cities and railway stations and I could recognize every one of them in less than a heartbeat. Keep up the good work!

[bavli]

You forgot something.Where's the smell of the Wursts from the fast food joints under the platforms?

[SCrails]

The glass on the windows of the station as well as the train look pretty impressive. Judging by the looks of it, that makes it two diesel and two electric routes, I guess steam didn't fit the description on this one. Oh well.

[TrainMan_112]

Sorry Rick. I'm not very satisfied. I was hoping for a British route in high detail. That's just my 2 cents.

Can't satisfy everybody.

[Driverman2008]

Can't satisfy everybody.
Yeah, you're right.

[TrirailF40PHL]

Can't satisfy everybody.

Especially Driverman.

(Although as much as I am impressed myself, I will nitpick the window reflections on the ICE-3... *ducks for cover*)

-Kurt

[Company Notch]

Judging by the looks of it, that makes it two diesel and two electric routes, I guess steam didn't fit the description on this one. Oh well.

I didn't say we were done with content announcements.... :)

-Rick

Rick Selby
Lead Game Designer
Microsoft Train Simulator

http://yardlimits.spaces.live.com

[Company Notch]

Interestingly, no mention about other motive power, especially Class 182 Taurus electric locomotive.

There is more to come, for all the routes and then some....

-Rick

Rick Selby
Lead Game Designer
Microsoft Train Simulator

http://yardlimits.spaces.live.com

[Company Notch]

You forgot something.Where's the smell of the Wursts from the fast food joints under the platforms?

We've cut real-world smell from this version, unfortunately.

Those wursts were tasty - they helped to sustain our team during the research trip. Well, that and German beer... ;)

-Rick

Rick Selby
Lead Game Designer
Microsoft Train Simulator

http://yardlimits.spaces.live.com

[BNSFfan]

ICE ICE baby!

[muskokaandtahoe]

I'm not much for European routes but this does look like it could be pretty interesting.

Wonder if all that structural steel is done w/ polys or are they "cheating" w/alphas....

Rail looks quite good... but in that second photo... I dunno, something about those switch points don't look right to me. And curved diverging rails... may be correct for the scene but after all these years of MSTS curved switches all I can say is bleah/yuck when I see them in this new sim (as in I'm dying to see North American AREA (numbered) switches in this game).

[SurvivorSean]

You know I'm not much for European routes as well. But I have a funny feeling that when I get a taste of it I'm going to love it none the less. I'm having fun pumping out whatever MSTS will let me these days in the interim - longevity is something VERY RARE among software. I think you guys are doing a great job. Of all the features/routes I'd love to see - I can sum it all down to one main thing that I think all of us can appreciate. Good editor utilities and the proper documentation to support them! If we all can build it - they will come. I eagerly await to build the next generation of a train simulator world (or at least a few pieces of it).

Keep up the good work!

Thanks

Sean

[shortbart]

Well, they´re is place for Steam Locos, the BLS (Lötschbergbahn) owns Steamers for Special Events in their Loco-Park :)

[SCrails]

I didn't say we were done with content announcements.... :)

-Rick

Rick Selby
Lead Game Designer
Microsoft Train Simulator

http://yardlimits.spaces.live.com

Oh ok, thanks for the correction then.

[Conrail Tweety]

You forgot something.Where's the smell of the Wursts from the fast food joints under the platforms?

Maybe the Wursts is yet to come? :rolleyes:

[shortbart]

Maybe the Wursts is yet to come?

Actually they are already on the screenshots, becuase the ICE 3 is inoffically called "Weißwurst" :D

[adam3544]

If the density of the catenary is a sign for the scenery quality, then the graphics engine will have to cope with really big task.
Steve, when you mentioned that the progress in writing the new graphics engine is going nicely, I hope you intended to this kind of scenery.

Adam

[Tadgell]

cool, those ice trains look fun to drive. thanks rick, this update is a welcome surprise

[Mr Badlands]

Thanks for the new screenies Rick. Quite impressive from what I can see. http://forums.flightsim.com/vbts/images/icons/icon14.gif

[cougar]

quite impressive indeed.

[stonelance]

Both Steven's Pass and the German route are areas that we are testing as we make progress on the new graphics engine.

[nikos1]

Jawdropping, i was getting a bit worried after months of no updates but this is just amazing, the station, the catenary, the ICE3, outstanding work guys!

[kmothersil]

Well that just satified and motivated me to get MSTS 2.

[jtallen_0883]

Actually they are already on the screenshots, becuase the ICE 3 is inoffically called "Weißwurst" :D


Actually, “Weißwurst” is from Bavaria and means "white saussage"

[MatthewS]

Both Steven's Pass and the German route are areas that we are testing as we make progress on the new graphics engine.

Those screenshots are very impressive. A lot of detail!

How is the new lighting/shadowing system coming along? It sure would be good to see a preview of that especially in the 1st shot inside the station. Will each of those "spot" lights above the platform cast there own light and shadows?

Will those people actually walk around? And will the station have the aural ambience you would expect in such a enclosed area... im thinking maybe a little reverb to the audio.

Also, is there a "first person" camera in TS2 (and FS11). If would be good if I could switch to the "first person" camera and walk (and run) around. Maybe a little head bob with each step.

In anycase TS2 is shaping up the be a very impressive simulation. Congratulations on the progress so far!

[shortbart]

Actually, “Weißwurst” is from Bavaria and means "white saussage"
Did you mean with sausage = Bratwurst? If you tell an Bavarian that he has to barbecue his Weißwurst he will kill you ;) But the rest of us here in Germany say "a wurst is a wurst" :D

[mestevet]

I'm sorry to be a nitpicker, because I am impressed, but will there be catenary over the tracks inside the station? I also noticed in the third screen shot that the front wheel on the third car in the ICE seems to be sunk into the rail about an inch - I know that happens with some rolling stock in MSTS1 also. There also seem to be some "Alpha" type problems, at least that's what they're referred to in MSTS1 - look at the glass behind the Aryan dude's head in the third shot - the platform lights can be seen through it, but nothing else, like the glass/latticework on the end of the shed. There's another "Alpha" issue visible, if you look at the catwalk at the top of the shed, where it overlaps the latticework at the end. I also noticed that there's no pantograph visibible on the ICE.

The catenary shot gives me a LOT of hope (being a fan of electrics) but I'm wondering how it was done: like MSTS1 with default wire applied over the track, or by separate scenery objects. I can detect what appear to be repeatedly used sections of catenary, but they DO look very well matched and coordinated with the cross-catenary, along with the lack of wire in the station, it makes me think they might be separately placed scnery objects. I hope for developers, there will be some insight and tools for assisting in placing catenary and poles (gantries).

I'm SURE these things will be noticed and dealt with. But it gives me some insight into the fact that there may be many of the same detail "issues" that we deal with in MSTS1 in the new sim: Alpha sorting problems, rolling stock/wheel placement, catenary headaches, perhaps difficulty with pantograph animation?

I also hope that the finished route doesn't suffer from marketing sparseness. What I mean is, the station is SO wonderfully detailed, I hope it doesn't look out of place on the route, with lots sparse, repeated and generic scenery elsewhere. Too many sims suffer from this, the team works hard on one area to make impressive looking screenshots for marketing purposes, but then anything outside that one area is just dead boring.

I'll say it again, I'm impressed with Köln Hauptbanhof to be sure, it does remind me of when I was there. I was hoping to see a bit of the Cathedral and the Rhine bridge too, but I DO understand that this is a work in progress (don't fault me for being eager!).

Good work.

Steve

[stonelance]

I'm not sure how old those pictures are. I thought they had catenary placed in the station, but they might not have done it yet. I'm planning on writng up a lttle blog about catenary in detail but can give a little overview of how it works.

For spanning gantries, generally the gantry is modelled and placed across the track. The gantry has many attach points where a wire hanger can be placed. A wire hanger is generally placed over each track that passes under the gantry, and it has a marker placed automatically on the track that associates that wire hanger with a particular location on the track. The wire hanger has two attach points which the game uses to generate wires automatically at runtime between hangers. The connectivity of the wire hangers is calculated by the positions of the markers on the track and the track layout of the switches.

Single track gantries are easier because they have the wire hanger built into the model so you just have to place the gantry and the marker will be placed on the track.

Anyway, the benefit of this system is that you don't have to try to line up wire models between gantries because they are automatically stretched to fit between the gantries. Wires also always connect exactly where they should on the model and don't float in the air. Zig zag along straight track can also be easily controlled by just alternating two different gantries with the attach points different distances from the center of the pole.

This system does take a while to place catenary. I'm not sure what the process to do it in MSTS1 or other sims is like, but I'm guessing for the visuals that are achieved this is probably easier than manually lining up gantry and wire models. We are planning tools to help place them on single track sections, but trying to do an automatic algorithm for multi track areas is extremely difficult and probably wouldnt get great results anyway.


As for the other comments, alpha sorting is always an issue in any software. Alpha is a pain in the ass for graphics developers, but the problems you see in these scenes should be less severe once the new graphics system is in place. The pantograph actually animates properly, but those were all AI trains and I don't think they were moving, so the pantograh was off. The panto at each end of the ICE is actually independantly controlled so you can raise the correct one depending on what direction you are travelling. The nose cones (I don't know the official name) also can be opened exposing the couplers at the ends of the consist. Doors open and close, and I believe the shroud between the cars animates properly as well.

This area around the station has a ton of unique buildings. Probably more than any other route we are doing. The Cathedral is there, Rhine bridge, nearby factories and industrial buildings, yard facilities, turn tables, the elevated freeway in the area, the theatre looking building near Cologne station by the river, even a spherical looking building a few stations down from Cologne. I don't know the names for most of the buildings because there are so many.

MatthewS:
The shadows are not implemented yet. We still porting over old code to the new system and working on some new shader stuff. Hopefully in the next 6-8 months we should have something.

The characters all animate already, it is just hard to tell from a screenshot :)

There is no way to walk around as a person in the game.

[Driverman2008]

Interesting info there, Steve. I have a couple of questions about the passenger trains in MSTS 2 (based on the German route screenshots). Will the doors on the passenger cars open when the train stops at a station? And will the actual pedestrians at the station walk up into the passenger cars and take their seats (both in an external view and passenger car view)?

[mestevet]

Steve, thanks for the insights. Mind you, I wasn't trying to be a p.i.t.a., believe me, I understand how annoying it is to deal with nitpickers on an unfinished project!

The explanation of the catenary placement made a lot of sense to me. I consider myself to be in the extremely small minority of people who are fascinated by catenary, poles, etc. and I've done quite a bit of "gantry" modeling for my own routes. One of the frustrating things with MSTS1 is the rather simple contact wire, with no true "catenary" (which describes the curved shape made by the "messenger wire", from which the contact wire is hung by the hangers).

In MSTS1, there is a gantry placement feature in the Route Editor, which makes use of a "gantry.dat" file which the developer/user must set up to define the placement of the gantries. It gives such information as spacing between gantries and two placement options (center placed or duplicates on either side of the track). The file also deals with what to do in multiple track regions by being able to specify different gantry shapes depending on the distance between track centers. For single track, you could specify a common single sided, cantilvered type gantry, but if the single track expands into double track, the file allows you to specify a different one (say a 2 track spanning "H" type). Similar if it went to 3, 4, 5 etc. track. It works fairly well as long as the tracks maintain a "standard" spacing (even if the track segments are not physically, say, 3 track segments, but 3 single track segments side by side) - the problem is if tracks start to diverge, then the gantry placement algorithm will sometimes mis-place poles.

It's run only on one scenery tile at a time, and it places gantries on every track in the tile, per the gantry definition that is selected (there can be numerous definitions entered in the gantry.dat file). It will place the gantries perpendicular to the track and spaced the specified interval along the length of the track, so it makes placement of the objects VERY easy (if the trackwork is complex, it doesn't work quite as well). I've found it to be a pretty powerful tool, even though it has it's quirks - it definitely beats placing gantries by hand along miles of route, even if you have to hand edit a few places where it doesn't work quite right. I've placed literally hundreds of gantries this way on my own "home-brew" route, and by mixing and matching, with different types of gantries, the effect can really make the route look recognizeable, just from the gantry types used!

One question that comes to mind, since the catenary has come up. In MSTS, I know of no way to edit the default catenary wire (in the majority, it's just a single wire) into any different type. In the new sim, will there/can there be a provision for editing "wire models" to something other than a "default"? What I mean is that in the screenshot with the catenary, it appears to be what I would call "simple catenary". However, this is not the only type. The PRR and hence the NEC between New York and Washington has "compound catenary", in which an auxiliary wire is suspended from the messenger and the contact wire hung from that (I think it's seen more in high speed operation). Then there's the "New Haven" type catenary, I'm not sure what the official term is, but it looks like a "V" with double catenary messenger wires, each suspending a hanger down to the auxiliary and contact wires. It's VERY distinctive (and still out there although being replaced). That's not even getting into types of inclined catenary (on curves and other situations). And let's not forget just plain old trolley wire for traction fans out there! My point is, that there would be a lot of power for creating addon routes IF the default wire model were editable, specific to at least a particular route (and perhaps different types depending upon location).

There are a number of good resources out there for descriptions of catenary systems and their associated hardware, and I could probably point anyone who's interested to them if they'd like.

Steve

[stonelance]

The doors open and passengers can get on and off the train.

The catenary wire model is basically just a single model with two bones. One bone is the top messenger wire and the second is the lower contact wire. By setting the vertex weights to one or the other you can control how the polygons will be drawn. If you wanted a compound catenary you would just weight both the contact and auxiliary wire polygons to the second bone, and it should work decently well. It may not look exactly prototypical but it should be close. I think the single wire trolley type should be possible by just not putting any polygons on the first bone. The V type might be possible if you weight both top parts to the same bone, but I'm not really sure. I've never seen pictures of that type.

[mestevet]

The V type might be possible if you weight both top parts to the same bone, but I'm not really sure. I've never seen pictures of that type.

Steve - I was looking for a photo when I posted the last time, but didn't find one right away, but here I found one of what I'm calling the "New Haven type" (because that's the only place I've ever seen it):

http://flickr.com/photos/brooklynparrots/2237987562/
(photo credits listed in the link)

You can see that perhaps it's better described as a delta shape than a "V".

From your description, there seems to at least be SOME ability to manipulate the shape, which is a darn sight better than we have now. Please just allow us some wiggle room to expand! I'm not a New Haven nut, but I KNOW there are plenty of them out there, and the ability to model that type of catenary would be... Well, have you ever heard a grown man giggle with the delight of a 5 year old?? ;)

Steve

[MatthewS]

There is no way to walk around as a person in the game.


Can you add a "world" camera that can be positioned anywhere (lon,lat,alt,heading,bank,pitch) via SimConnect. This would allow the creation of a "first person" walk around app using SimConnect.

There doesn't seem to be this type of camera in FSX. I know you can position the VC camera using the SetCamera6Dof method but its not the same thing.

I was trying to create a SimConnect app that would dynamically position the camera at end of runways, on the apron etc, to create interesting views of the players aircraft and AI aircraft. Its frustrating there's not this type of camera in FSX.

But maybe I'm mistaken? Do you know if there is a way to dynamically position a camera anywhere in the world using Simconnect?

Also... Do you also do the SimConnect development for TS2/FS11? It would be interesting to discuss some enhancements to the SimConnect API.

You need a another Beta Tester? Ive been doing a lot in FSX with SimConnect/SDK eg

FSX_KML (vector and landclass based scenery using Google Earth KML files)
FSX_Photoscene (creates photoscenery using tiles downloaded from Tile servers.. Ive not released this due to copyright issues with the satellite data)
FSX_ATC (directs AI aircraft via SIDS/STARS using simconnect).

Anyway... you must get hundreds of requests by people wanting to be beta testers. But if you need someone who can focus on SimConnect aspect of TS2/FS11 then I would be very interested!

[oakpalms]

Your Insider, Product tab says msts-2 will be out for the holidays of 2009. What happened with the "early 2009" that was stated a long time ago. 2009 makes ten years from version 1 to version 2--can't Microsoft do better than ten years before an update? If not, there will be many of us who probably won't be around for the next version, so please get it right this time.

Bob Edwards

[stonelance]

I don't really know anything about SimConnect, and my knowledge of the camera system is limited. The camera system should be very similar to FSX, we are not making any major changes to it. You mght be able to achieve what you want by creating a custom sim object that behaves like a person and then just using a "cockpit" camera for the first-person view. I know similar things are done for ground vehicles, and I've even "driven" an elephant in FSX :P

[MatthewS]

I don't really know anything about SimConnect, and my knowledge of the camera system is limited. The camera system should be very similar to FSX, we are not making any major changes to it. You mght be able to achieve what you want by creating a custom sim object that behaves like a person and then just using a "cockpit" camera for the first-person view. I know similar things are done for ground vehicles, and I've even "driven" an elephant in FSX :P

Thanks for your reply.

Hopefully MS will see the usefulness of a totally free "world" camera, not tied to any simobject or the VC.

I just want to instruct SimConnect to do something like this:-
1) Set "world" camera to specific lon/lat/alt/heading/bank/pitch
2) Switch active camera to the "world" camera

I guess if I could tell SimConnect to make the "world" cam track a particular simobject (ie change heading and pitch, whilst keeping lon/lat/alt fixed), that would be nice too!

edit: Is there some "official" way to submit "ideas" to the TS2/FS11/ESP2 team?

[MatthewS]

You mght be able to achieve what you want by creating a custom sim object that behaves like a person and then just using a "cockpit" camera for the first-person view.

Sorry I forgot to say, I don't think using a custom simobject+cockpit view will work...consider this:-

Imagine you want to do a preflight walk around. You will have the plane you're flying loaded, it has its own cockpit. What you want to do is get out of the cockpit (ie switch to the world cam) and walk around the plane. Ok the walking bit can be done by a Simconnect client, but without the "world" cam its not possible.

The same would apply for TS2. You've got your freight train loaded. You want to hop out of the cabin and walk around a little bit, check her out then hop back into the cabin. Or maybe you pull your train up into a siding, hop out and watch a few trains pass by on the main track.

A "world" camera really opens up a lot of possibilities.

edit: Also... in FSX/TS2/ESP you model the entire world. There are no world constraints, unlike TS1 where only a small area around the route is modeled. So I think its a shame to not have a "world" cam when the entire world is modeled.

[Kristian]

As for the camera issue (already other threads are about this subject), I don't know what type of cameras are used in FSX, but a free roam camera in a train simulator is not superfluous. In Railsimulator there is an option to detach the camera from the object, no matter what your current camera view is; you are in free camera mode then (or whatever you care to call it). I am sure the TS2 team is aware of this, and personally I don't see why it shouldn't be possible to implement something similar.

[NorthernWarrior]

As World of Subways features the ability to walk around outside the train, change cabs etc. it will be a real shame if MSTS2 couldn't feature it. I mean, this would be a cool feature in Flight Sim as well, the ability to exit the plane down the steps or up the jetway and walk around the airport to your next assignment. Adds to the feel of taking part in a dynamic, living world.

[bavli]

It looks like you will have a very good thing eye candy-wise,and I am very glad for that. However, there was a thread about the physics of MSTX with suggestions as to what might be useful for prototypical train handling. I hope the team is at least giving thought to the suggestions made.The effort to get that right is a piece of cake compared to graphics.

[stonelance]

You can email ideas to tell_ts@microsoft.com. If you want to get on the beta list you can ask there as well.

I don't see why a SimObject can't substitute for what you call a "world camera" If you can switch between SimObjects it would work perfectly fine. In fact we use a ViewerSim in TS2 to fly around and look at stuff. Also, if you want fixed world locations that can be switched to, I believe FSX has the concept of tower cameras which are basically fixed in world position, but always focus on the user's sim. I'm not really sure how they are positioned though, and I don't know if it is adjustable through SimConnect.

[MatthewS]

You can email ideas to tell_ts@microsoft.com. If you want to get on the beta list you can ask there as well.

I don't see why a SimObject can't substitute for what you call a "world camera" If you can switch between SimObjects it would work perfectly fine. In fact we use a ViewerSim in TS2 to fly around and look at stuff. Also, if you want fixed world locations that can be switched to, I believe FSX has the concept of tower cameras which are basically fixed in world position, but always focus on the user's sim. I'm not really sure how they are positioned though, and I don't know if it is adjustable through SimConnect.

AFAIK the only camera that SimConnect has any control over is the VC cockpit camera which can be controlled using the SetCamera6DOF function. But if you set it to a position outside the cockpit you usually dont see the external model of your aircraft because the aircraft VCs usually only model the VC and not the external view (for performance). Also, there is no way I can find to make Simconnect set the camera to a specific object. Eg in FSX I can't make it set the camera to a particular AI aircraft.

Thanks for the email link. I will submit some suggestions there.

But what is this "ViewerSim" you talk about?

[OwainGlyndwr]

No UK route.................... :(

[Driverman2008]

No UK route.................... :(
I feel the same way as you do too.:(

[OwainGlyndwr]

It`s the yanks trying to rewrite history again.

Railroads were invented in the US in 1347 and the UK stole the idea from us. :D

[westerngy]

Owain your comments have nothing to do with the discussion on the fourth route.Again you managed to have a thread locked.