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That Crazy DC-3


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A large twin engine tail dragger is really hard to fly. That's as per prototype. Lots of good information on the official forums on the feedback session.

James M

Director Ohio Valley Golden Age A Golden Age Regional Airline Simulation

Ryzen 5 3600, ASUS Prime X570-P, NVidia GTX 1660 Super, 32G 3200mhz, 1TB Samsung SSD, HC Alpha, HC Bravo, Windows 11

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On 1/13/2023 at 7:22 PM, Ducktooth said:

Is it me or is this thing so hard to control it's like flying something with relaxed static stability! Yes! I have made sure my CG is within parameters. 

Which flight sim version are you using, and which DC-3 model? I can only comment of FSX version. Thx

Always Aviate, then Navigate, then Communicate. And never be low on Fuel, Altitude, Airspeed, or Ideas.

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You got me interested to see the handling qualities of the FSX DC-3. I have never flown the aircraft before, so I took off from Iwojima (RJAW) and flew a 1.2 hour flight by dead reckoning to Chichijima (RJCI). Ground handling was stable during a slow paced taxi for takeoff. Takeoff roll and climb out were without any surprises, and the aircraft was trimmed to nearly hands off level flight. Flap extension showed significant but trimmable nose up. Lowering the gear definitely slowed the aircraft.  Hardest part was flying just above VSo (gear down stall speed) since Chichijima's dirt runway is only 2300 feet long. Throttles were reduced at about 100 ft before touch down, with immediate brakes on landing. I "may" have trimmed some palm trees at the far end of the field with my props, but no one saw me, and I deny everything! This is a fun aircraft to fly, and I look forward to flying this with increasing realism settings.

image.jpeg.9c0f55b5dcc499855a214d88425c54fe.jpeg

Always Aviate, then Navigate, then Communicate. And never be low on Fuel, Altitude, Airspeed, or Ideas.

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13 hours ago, PhrogPhlyer said:

You got me interested to see the handling qualities of the FSX DC-3. I have never flown the aircraft before, so I took off from Iwojima (RJAW) and flew a 1.2 hour flight by dead reckoning to Chichijima (RJCI). Ground handling was stable during a slow paced taxi for takeoff. Takeoff roll and climb out were without any surprises, and the aircraft was trimmed to nearly hands off level flight. Flap extension showed significant but trimmable nose up. Lowering the gear definitely slowed the aircraft.  Hardest part was flying just above VSo (gear down stall speed) since Chichijima's dirt runway is only 2300 feet long. Throttles were reduced at about 100 ft before touch down, with immediate brakes on landing. I "may" have trimmed some palm trees at the far end of the field with my props, but no one saw me, and I deny everything! This is a fun aircraft to fly, and I look forward to flying this with increasing realism settings.

image.jpeg.9c0f55b5dcc499855a214d88425c54fe.jpeg

Though I never was a RW PIC of a DC-3 or R-4 as we called them in the Corps.  I did log a little time as a 2P in them.  I feel the FSX and P3D modeling is pretty much exactly the way I remember them handling RW.  I totally remember how to slow down if you're on a hot descent.  A shove on the "Barn Door" rudder will kill 20 knots or more in an instant!! Suddenly you're dropping the nose and worrying about getting down to stall speed!!!!

As another poster noted,  This plane like other tail draggers are quite the switch for someone who is used to tricycle geared aircraft.  Which is exactly why they require different certifications.  

Being an old chopper guy I usually fly low and slow.
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My real tailwheel time is limited to the J-3 Cub and Cessna 170.

Definitely NOT a trike. But the 1942 J-3 gave me some of my most memorable flying experiences.

Wondering if the C-117 the Corps flew, with the even larger barn door rudder flew much differently than the earlier DC-3s.

Happy Simming.

Always Aviate, then Navigate, then Communicate. And never be low on Fuel, Altitude, Airspeed, or Ideas.

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2 hours ago, PhrogPhlyer said:

My real tailwheel time is limited to the J-3 Cub and Cessna 170.

Definitely NOT a trike. But the 1942 J-3 gave me some of my most memorable flying experiences.

Wondering if the C-117 the Corps flew, with the even larger barn door rudder flew much differently than the earlier DC-3s.

Happy Simming.

Can't say.  The Marine version is the only one I've ever say up front in.  Actually I first got interested in flying when as a young kid I thumbed a rife in a Cub at a little grass strip untowered airport.  

Being an old chopper guy I usually fly low and slow.
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On 1/18/2023 at 1:00 AM, PhrogPhlyer said:

Which flight sim version are you using, and which DC-3 model? I can only comment of FSX version. Thx

Well this is the FS 2020 section so I'm taking a guess that's the sim he is referring to.

The DC3 in the sim is a bit of a handful at take off you do have to predict any swing especially with a crosswind or at least react very quickly to it without putting in too much input.

What works best for me is starting with stick back till 35 - 40mph then Letting  stick move central till the tail comes up of its own accord rather than pushing forward to lift it , this reduces the swing due to gyroscopic effect.

It follows classic taildragger characteristics but with the added challenge of high inertia compared to smaller stuff.

Practice is the only solution.

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Thanks Hyperdark, I guess I need o be more attentive. Either way, the DC-3 is an eternal classic.

Always Aviate, then Navigate, then Communicate. And never be low on Fuel, Altitude, Airspeed, or Ideas.

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  • 2 weeks later...

In speaking with a local DC-3 pilot he made the comment you can get the tail off the ground before you actually  have rudder authority. There is a LOT to think about when flying the "default" DC-3 and as I've dug deeper most of it is correct. It's a two person airplane that you can't fly competently alone after a few hours. It's work, practice, time and knowledge to fly it well. And it's great fun. Reading the actual flight manuals in various forms has really helped my flying. If ATC doesn't ask me to contact ground on a landing roll it's a success for me at this stage.

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James M

Director Ohio Valley Golden Age A Golden Age Regional Airline Simulation

Ryzen 5 3600, ASUS Prime X570-P, NVidia GTX 1660 Super, 32G 3200mhz, 1TB Samsung SSD, HC Alpha, HC Bravo, Windows 11

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6 hours ago, jdmesq said:

Reading the actual flight manuals in various forms has really helped my flying.

This is so true for all the sim aircraft we fly. Understanding the procedures and limitations of the real aircraft let us fly the simulatoed on in a more realistic manor. Also, just visited the OVA website. Great work being done there.

Always Aviate, then Navigate, then Communicate. And never be low on Fuel, Altitude, Airspeed, or Ideas.

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On 1/29/2023 at 12:26 PM, jdmesq said:

In speaking with a local DC-3 pilot he made the comment you can get the tail off the ground before you actually  have rudder authority.

That's the case with a lot of tail draggers.

Being an old chopper guy I usually fly low and slow.
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On 1/29/2023 at 12:26 PM, jdmesq said:

Reading the actual flight manuals in various forms has really helped my flying.

It also helps you stay alive RW!  When we ferried a P-3B coast to coast in the '60s no one aboard had ever been inside a P-3 before.  Much less sat in the cockpit.

We let the chosen take off pilots read the takeoff sensitive stuff before takeoff.  While others passed the manuals around to learn how to control fuel burn, proper altitude, etc.   And the two guys designated as the pilots to land us studied up on approach and landing.  It worked out fine.  Of course it did help that we had several manuals aboard and several hours between takeoff and the start of approach for everyone to study up on their assigned tasks.

Michael

 

Being an old chopper guy I usually fly low and slow.
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To not put to fine a point on it the DC-3 is a hard aircraft to fly. Multi-engine and tail wheel. That's rare and weird today and very little flying most modern pilots to prepares them for that scenario. Combine the fact it's a giant airplane and designed almost ninety years ago. The struggle is real. It's to be expected and it seems sim pilots are great at pushing buttons for realism but sometimes not so much at actually flying the plane for realism. But the pilot mod is the hardest one.  Sure the plane as released has some issues but they sure aren't what most seem to think are wrong. 

James M

Director Ohio Valley Golden Age A Golden Age Regional Airline Simulation

Ryzen 5 3600, ASUS Prime X570-P, NVidia GTX 1660 Super, 32G 3200mhz, 1TB Samsung SSD, HC Alpha, HC Bravo, Windows 11

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There's also the whole tailwheel vs trike landing discussion. Most landing with a tail wheeled aircraft are done on main gear, rudder for directional control, tail wheel settles as get slower, then rudder, rudder, rudder, until engines off in the chocks. Of course for short field landing a three-point landing is the best, slow sleep, lots of wheel friction, and don't forget gentle brakes, on/off/on/off.... Add a cross wind and this is not for the feint at heart. The more we make sim flying realistic, the higher the challenge and greater the reward. OK time to try a short field, over the trees, crosswind landing with a J-3 and then a DC-3. I'll let you know how it goes!

Always Aviate, then Navigate, then Communicate. And never be low on Fuel, Altitude, Airspeed, or Ideas.

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37 minutes ago, PhrogPhlyer said:

There's also the whole tailwheel vs trike landing discussion. Most landing with a tail wheeled aircraft are done on main gear, rudder for directional control, tail wheel settles as get slower, then rudder, rudder, rudder, until engines off in the chocks. Of course for short field landing a three-point landing is the best, slow sleep, lots of wheel friction, and don't forget gentle brakes, on/off/on/off.... Add a cross wind and this is not for the feint at heart. The more we make sim flying realistic, the higher the challenge and greater the reward. OK time to try a short field, over the trees, crosswind landing with a J-3 and then a DC-3. I'll let you know how it goes!

Sorry mate but Ive never landed a DC3 in the 3 point attitude - ever. Dont know of anyone who did. The rudder doesn't have enough authority under 70 -80 kts. Best to aim for the end of the runway at 90kts level, 2300/20" and on touch down apply brakes and balance the elevator and fly that big tail down gently. I have a lot of hours on J3, Super Cubs and the Dakota. There are two types of pilot, those who have ground looped, and those who will. Thankfully my ground loop was gentle in G-ROVE at Glasgow. Cheeky bastard in the tower called me "Would you like to do a 180 and continue to the end of the runway- or can you taxi back to parking where you are !"... Had I been Dak' I might not be here to tell the story 🙂

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1 hour ago, AlyMac said:

Don't know of anyone who did.

Thanks for that tip Mac. I don't have DC-3 time and haven't read the flight limitations, yet. Reading up more it seem that there are airplanes that are far easier to wheel land than to three-point, such as the Globe/Temco Swift, the Beech 18 and DC-3.

The J-3, C-170, definitely did numerous 3-point and main wheel landings. If a pilot is not current, or does not have a lot of tailwheel time, and if there is not a strong or gusty crosswind (each individual pilot has to define strong), a three-point landing is usually the better way to go. There is less kinetic energy to deal with during the rollout, and flaring at the wrong height or making a hard landing is no big deal, so the pilot can concentrate on just one variable, directional control. It is the more conservative landing in most airplanes, and when in doubt, the conservative approach to dealing with a moving object is often the better one.

I consider myself one of the lucky ones, no ground loop... yet?

Here what the US FAA has to say about tailwheel transition per Airplane Flying Handbook (FAA-H-8083-3C), 

 https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/files/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/airplane_handbook/15_afh_ch14.pdf

Always Aviate, then Navigate, then Communicate. And never be low on Fuel, Altitude, Airspeed, or Ideas.

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Laptop, Intel Core i7 CPU 1.80GHz 2.30 GHz, 8GB RAM, 64-bit, NVIDIA GeoForce MX 130, Extra large coffee-black.

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